File talk:OttomanEmpireIn1683.png

This map is so wrong

Turkish conquests never went so far west. Hungarian and croatian parts never belonged to ottomans, for example compare it with this maps which show maximum expansion to the west:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.253.175.81 (talk • contribs) 19:13, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

No, it is not so wrong. This map has been created in 2007 (by a Wikipedian who seems to be inactive by now). As far as I can see, it is fairly realistic. It is true that Croatia was not a part of the Ottoman Empire. So there may be a slight exaggeration at the north east Adriatic coast. But other than that, it is perfectly OK. Most of Hungary was a part of Ottoman Empire. In 1541 Budapest and in 1566 Esztergom in north west Hungary (at Slovakia border) were captured. Budapest was a seat of beylerbey and Estergom was a seat of sanjak bey (administrative units of Ottoman empire) . Hungary was a part of Ottoman territory till the Great Turkish war at end of 17th century. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:54, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, if you are comparing it with whole Ottoman Empire, then those 100km more or less is nothing. But, on this map it seems as if Ottoman Empire has a direct border with Holy Roman Empire which never happened. "Royal" part of Hungary was always independent. Also, Ottoman Empire on east Adriatic coast stretched almost to coastline (except towns which belonged to Venice). This border of Venice in Dalmatia was achieved quite later, in 1699. (treaty of Karlowitz). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.253.182.171 (talk) 21:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Turks reached Vienna and conquered most of Hungary, besides Royal Hungary was an Austrian puppet ruled in a personal union with Austria, I'd say that constitutes a border with the Holy Roman Empire. 123.243.215.92 (talk) 04:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did the ottoman ever reach to Caspian see and middle Persia? I think the eastern side of their expansion is also exaggerated. Anooshahpour (talk) 20:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes in 1580s Ottomans occupied most of Caucasus and by the treaty of Ferhat Pasha in 1590 the Safavid side acknowledged Ottoman gains in Caucasus. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 05:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name move proposal

This map is the best map about the Ottoman Empire in Wikipedia. But the name of the map is misleading. It is not a map of 1683. It is a map of early 1600s. While only Crete ( and a few forts on the north west which are not shown on this map) were annexed, vast territories were abandoned in West Iran and Caucasus in the 17th century. So I think the name should be moved to Ottoman Empire at its greatest extend without giving any specific date. I'll try to call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The main article Ottoman Empire uses

File: Ottoman Empire 16-17th century.jpg
label: Ottoman Empire and Vassal States 16-17 Centuries
descr: Map of the Ottoman Empire at its greatest extent, at the end of the 16th century (1600)

Certainly it is better, as a shaded relief map with a single focus, either "greatest extent" or dated ("1600"; in the east, 1590-1603 peacetime, plus some wartime years in some sense).

Its revision history shows focus on Africa's interior and Red Sea coast, and on distinguishing vassal states from, say, administered territory.

That map is useless for the first six stages of expansion. For a date such as 1451, this one nicely shows Ottoman territory, and Constantinople on the verge of its conquest, in context of future Ottoman conquests. --P64 (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Something like Ottoman Empire(? or Conquests, Territories, Acquisitions) in Stages would be a much better pagename here. But the key (including internal title, so to speak) and description are more important than the pagename and fixing the key requires editing the image. --P64 (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this map is wrong !!!

This map is not credible !!! The Ottoman Empire never ever rule the Caucasus !!! Abkhazia and Circassia where never to be conquered till 1864 When the Russian tsars conquered it. All the maps on the world who are credible show that Abkhazia and Circassia was free lands.

And this image is based on this image as the source : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ottoman_1683.png And we see clearly that Abkhazia and Circassia are free lands. and from this reason i delete the image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beco1977 (talk • contribs) 18:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Unfortunately wrong...

The Ottoman Empire had never possesed the coasts of Circassia.

The Ottoman sultan didn't find any disadvantage they were "giving" also coasts of Circassia, where actually had never passed into the hands of the Ottomans, to the Tzar of the Russian Empire with extravagantly promises.^[1]

No this map is fairly realistic (though I am not sure about the so called Kuban territory at the north east of the Black Sea). Since the previous talk includes a text in Turkish, I'll also give a Turkish text together with the translation. (About the battles prior to the treaty of Ferhat Pasha). The following sentence is sourced :"Daha sonra Şirvan fethedildi. Buranın başkenti olan Şemahı ele geçirildi.Derbend (Demirkapı) eyalet haline getirilen Şirvan’ın başkenti yapıldı".^[2] Translation: "Then, Shirvan was conquered . Shirvan (city) which was the capital of this region was captured. Derbent was made the capital of the region which promoted to be a eyalet (province).". In Wikipedia please refer to the maps in the articles of Shirvan (city) and Derbent which are in conformity with this map. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know where is Kuban ? Do you know where is Shirvan ? Unfortunately, your claim won't prove the accuracy of this exaggerated map. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kuban is the territory along the north east coast of Black Sea. Shirvan is the east Caucasus region. Shirvan was a part of Ottoman Empire. But I am not sure about the Kuban territory (as I've remerked above). As far as I can see, that's the only questionable part of the map. (One of the main reasons of the Russo-Austrian-Turkish War of (1735–1739) was the disagreement on this territory.) Aside from questionable Kuban territory, the map is fairly realistic. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

About in Caucasus and western Iran: Ottoman Empire acquired and administrated Tiflis, Tebriz, Erdilân, Gence, Rûmiyye, Hemedan, Merâga, Kirmân-Şâhân, Revan, Luristan in the late 17th and early 18th century.^[3] But I couldn't find any reference about Circassia. I guess they might accept Ottoman sultan as a religious leader. But in those century, considerable number of Circassian were Christians. Takabeg (talk) 01:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

^ Osmanlı sultanı gerçekte hiçbir zaman fiilen eline geçmemiş olan Çerkesya kıyılarını da bol keseden Rusya Çarı na "vermekte" bir sakınca görmemişti, Sefer E. Berzeg, Soçi'nin Sürgündeki Sahipleri, Kafkasya Gerçeği, 1998, p. 46.
^ Prof. Yaşar Yüce-Prof. Ali Sevim: Türkiye tarihi Cilt III, AKDTYKTTK Yayınları, İstanbul, 1991 p 21
^ Orhan Kılıç, XVII. Yüzyılın İlk Yarısında Osmanlı Devleti'nin Eyalet ve Sancak Teşkilatlanması, Osmanlı, Cilt 6: Teşkilât, Yeni Türkiye Yayınları, Ankara, 1999, ISBN 975-6782-09-9, pp. 91-110. (in Turkish)

Serious problems

Greatest extent

Evidently (relying on coverage at EN.wiki) any map of greatest extent needs careful display because the momentary Ottoman conquests in different places were not coincident.

Perhaps a greatest extent at one point is workable if the map is limited to territories integrated by the Empire --some administrative definition that I can't suggest, and I don't know that any will work.

Caucasus

Perhaps this map depicts a momentary situation --probably from 1585 or so to 1604 or 1590-1603 if defined from treaty to war. At EN.wiki see Ottoman–Safavid War (1578–90) and more generally Ottoman–Persian Wars. In this respect one improvement is the revision of January/March 2010, reverted three times by User:Nedim Ardoğa. (See the record at the foot of the page.)

... (continued after a bit more reading here) The nearest dates of formal concessions may be 1590 and 1611.

According to our articles on regional cities shown by this map as Ottoman "Acquisitions 1566–1683":

Tabriz occupied 1585–1603 and 1724–25
Shirvan (region) 1578–1607
Yerevan "At the height of the Turkish-Persian wars, Yerevan changed hands fourteen times between 1513 and 1737."
Iğdır "remained under Persian rule (with brief military occupations by the Ottomans between 1578–1605, 1635–36 and 1722-46)"

(Iğdır and Yerevan are border cities of the light blue region on this map, just beyond the medium blue frontier agreed 1555 and in place most of the time thereafter.)

--P64 (talk) 19:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Colin McEvedy in the Penguin Atlas of Modern History shows Cherkesy (a version of Circassia) outside the O. Empire on all 11 maps 1483 to 1750; then its coast (Kuban) inside in 1783 and 1797. And shows western Georgia outside the Empire to 1559; inside on all maps 1600 to 1797. ... thus it shows the Caucausus Mountains as northern boundary of the O. Empire along the Black Sea for 1600 to 1750, seven maps including one dated 1681.

The basic series of maps covers Portugal to the Black Sea, east to west; thus no eastern border of O. Empire after Battle of Chaldiran.

--P64 (talk) 20:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The map shows the greatest extend of the empire. But it is important to note that the greatest extend does not refer to a specific date. When Ottomans captured Crete, Caucasus had already been lost and when the Ottomans recaptured Caucasus Hungary had been lost etc.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suppose that is true. It doesn't fit the file name, the map key, or the description (top to bottom on this page). I think we all know that it also misfits the use here (EN.wiki). Four problems, perhaps all four serious. --P64 (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above message begins with the word “Suppose”. We don’t have to suppose anything. This is an encycloapedia and what I write is sourced in various articles.(Except maybe for Kuban territory and desert area in North Africa which was almost uninhabited.) I am not the creator of this file. But I made three undones when Caucasus and west Iran were left out of Ottoman Territory. As far as I can see the only problem is the title. Maybe "The Ottoman Empire at its greatest extent" is a much better title. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:12, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You make exceptions. This map seems to run the line of the Caucasus to the Crimean Bosporus and eliminate Kuban territory. If that is a mistake it's a problem.

Both the key and the description date the illustration (1683).

Both any specific date and greatest extent are seriously bad, same as a specific date or "Greatest Extant of the British Empire" on the title, label, or description of a territory including British Columbia, Florida, Falkland, South Africa, and India.

What matters most is Where and How the map is used, which is influenced but not determined by the image contents and this page contents. English wikipedia commonly uses other maps that differ in some ways discussed here, especially in more important articles, but it does use this one on about 20 pages.

How is it used? I haven't looked, beyond Peace of Amasya from whence I came here. Article editors write their own captions, sometimes footnotes too. This talk and the obverse dispute tag may help them. --P64 (talk) 17:21, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Osmanlı sultanı gerçekte hiçbir zaman fiilen eline geçmemiş olan Çerkesya kıyılarını da bol keseden Rusya Çarı na "vermekte" bir sakınca görmemişti, Sefer E. Berzeg, Soçi'nin Sürgündeki Sahipleri, Kafkasya Gerçeği, 1998, p. 46.

[2] Prof. Yaşar Yüce-Prof. Ali Sevim: Türkiye tarihi Cilt III, AKDTYKTTK Yayınları, İstanbul, 1991 p 21

[Kilic91-3] Orhan Kılıç, XVII. Yüzyılın İlk Yarısında Osmanlı Devleti'nin Eyalet ve Sancak Teşkilatlanması, Osmanlı, Cilt 6: Teşkilât, Yeni Türkiye Yayınları, Ankara, 1999, ISBN 975-6782-09-9, pp. 91-110. (in Turkish)

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