Talk:Fruit preserves

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brinleyb.

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why is American english trying to dominate Wikipedia?

everyone knows the common name is Jam this is the word everyone in the world uses. Jam is made from fruit and sugar and normally served on bread. Americans call this 'jelly' but no one in the world believes this to be the same thing as its not made with real fruit. Why are we pandering to these views by having such a long winded page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 10:25, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

You can indeed make a preserve called a jelly. You simply make jam and then strain off the liquid from the fruit pulp. This is how you make redcurrant jelly, quince jelly, rowan jelly, shredless marmalade and bramble seedless. 151.170.240.200 (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

There isn't a single source to say jam/jelly is ever 'canned' so why do editors keep reverting the edit? it would be stupid to can jam as then you wouldn't be able to seal it after opening it the first time. The high sugar content preserves it nothign to do with 'canning' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 14:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

the South African brand: All Gold is available in cans on Amazon, even from the UK.151.170.240.200 (talk) 07:41, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

'Fruit preserves are preparations of fruits, vegetables and sugar, often canned or sealed for long-term storage.' Canned? glass jars are called 'jam jars' for a reason...Neither jam or jelly is ever sold in cans... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 10:28, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

You are not quite correct. The general category of "fruit preserves" includes, jam, jelly, marmalade, conserve, compote, tinned/bottled fruit, fruit leather, fruit curd and more. In fact any method of preserving fruit for use out of season. Hence the term "preserve."151.170.240.200 (talk) 08:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

many british people make jam at home and we never use pectin just fruit and sugar. I think they are confusing jam with what Americans call jelly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 14:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the chemistry of jam-making, you find that pectin is, indeed, the jelling agent. Without it the Jam would be liquid and, indeed, some brands such as Bonne Maman, produce runny jams from the poorer setting fruits such as strawberry and apricot. Plums contain sufficient pectin to set without more being added as do redcurrants, citrus fruits and apples. Strawberries and apricots on the other hand, do not and if you want a firm-set strawberry jam it must be added in some way. This can be done by blending it with a fruit with a higher pectin content: lemon juice works because it contains pectin. You can also add liquid pectin, or you can use a jam-making sugar such as Tate an Lyle's, which contains added pectin. In 1757, Hannah Glasse's recipe for raspberry jam uses Redcurrant Jelly as a base, so that it sets well. She doesn't know that this is because it contains pectin, of course, she just knows it works. Have a look at a 1960s Mrs Beeton, under "preserves" and you will find what fruits work on their own, what fruits don't and what you can add to make them set. Any book on jam-making will tell you the same. 151.170.240.200 (talk) 07:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Fruit preserved by drying or immersion in alchohol

Virginia Cooperative Extension. Virginia Tech. Virginia State University. Using Dehydration to Preserve Fruits, Vegetables, and Meats RPSM (talk) 02:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Bachelor's jam/Officer's jam/Rumtopf Fruit marinated in rum or other spirit RPSM (talk) 02:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Apricot-lime fruit leather

Fruit leather recipe with comments (Is same as above at another address) RPSM (talk) 13:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Changing unsourced errors in the article so as to correspond with the true facts

A simple and quick way to discover what a word means in UK English and US English respectively, is to use dictionaries that cover the different types of English: e.g. preserves in UK English:-

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary "PRESERVES

PRESERVES noun

1 [MASS NOUN] A foodstuff made with fruit preserved in sugar, such as jam or marmalade: a jar of cherry preserve [COUNT NOUN]: home-made preserves

In US English, It means the same thing:

Oxford Dictionaries. com definition - American English

Prepare (fruit) for long-term storage by boiling it with sugar: (as adjective preserved) those sweet preserved fruits associated with Cremona

So the article, which states:

In American, the plural form "preserves" is used to describe all types of jams and jellies. In all other English speaking countries most fruit preserves are simply called jam, with the singular preserve being applied to high fruit content jam, often for marketing purposes. 

is wrong.

Regarding jelly meaning fruit jelly from Crab Apples, Quinces, Redcurrants, Blackcurrants, the use in UK and US English is the same according to Wikipedia:

List of words having different meanings in American and British English: A–L Jelly, defined as: a clear or translucent preserve made from the liquid of fruits boiled in sugar and set with pectin, specifically without pieces of fruit (e.g. 'crab apple jelly') is listed in the column: Meanings common to British and American English

meaning that jelly in US and UK English (meaning jelly from real fruit) is the same, but in this article, jelly in US and UK English is explained as being different:

In the U.S. and Canada, jelly refers to a clear or translucent fruit spread made from sweetened fruit (or vegetable) juice and is set by using its naturally occurring pectin, whereas outside North America jelly refers to a gelatin-based dessert.

Neither of these erroneous statements is sourced, so it ought to be a simple matter to alter the article so that what is stated there corresponds to the actual facts. The sources are: 1) dictionaries that note differences between US and UK English that give examples 2) The firms on the internet based in England that make preserves and jellies and use these words in their trade descriptions 3) Books and articles on the subject of preserving written by English authors that explain jams, jellies and preserves. There are also recipe books/coookbooks that list recipes for jams and jellies.

After the facts have been sourced, it ought to be a simple matter to alter the article so that it corresponds with the true facts and does not contradict other articles in Wikipedia, as well as English and US books on Preserving and articles on the web. RPSM (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Jelly in english isnt the same thing, jelly is something we have with Ice cream its completely different from jam which we have on toast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 12:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

I've slightly altered the wording to reduce the confusion. I like bramble jelly on my toast here in England. We can also buy or make blackcurrant and redcurrant jelly here in the UK using fruit and sugar. I agree that the gelatine product is nearly always associated with the fruits strawberry, raspberry, lemon and orange. Dbfirs 21:01, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Old fashioned calves' foot jelly - as a sweet dessert and as a saoury dish with garlic

Jon Fasman From Intelligent Life magazine, Summer 2008 RPSM (talk) 03:16, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

1894 use, in US American cookbook, of the word jelly to refer to Calf's Foot/Pig Trotter Jelly - sweetened with sugar and flavored with mixed spice. ("This jelly will keep many weeks.")

CALF'S OR PIG'S FEET JELLY.

Thoroughly cleanse and scrape the feet, and covering them well with pure water, boil until thoroughly done. Set the stock aside in a cold place to solidify. The next day carefully skim off the grease from the surface and measure the stock. To one gallon of stock put three pounds of sugar, half a gallon good bright-colored wine, the juice, and thinly sliced rind of six lemons, and the beaten whites of sixteen eggs. Stir all together over the fire until well mixed, and boil twenty minutes. Strain through a flannel bag as usual. This jelly will keep for many weeks. Add stick cinnamon, one ounce mace, one dozen cloves, one dozen allspice.

Mrs. Charles H. Gibson's Maryland and Virginia Cook Book. Containing Numerous Valuable Receipts for Aid in Housekeeping

Prepared and Tested by Mrs. Charles H. Gibson, Maryland, Baltimore John Murphy & Company, 1894 RPSM (talk) 04:07, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Dictionary definition of jelly from an American dictionary RPSM (talk) 04:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Specialist dictionary definition of "fruit jelly" contradicts article - there is no difference between US and UK "fruit jelly" apart from US speakers (incorrectly) using jelly to refer to jam.

Under the entry: fruit jelly, this UK dictionary gives a two definitions: one for what is, in the US, jell-O; and a second one that is a pectin-set fruit jelly. The entry for jelly is here:- Dictionary of Food: International Cooking Terms (Charles Gordon Sinclair) and for fruit jelly here

Conclusion, based on Dictionary of Food: International Food and Cooking Terms from A to Z:: In UK English in the realm of food, jelly can mean either a) a gelatin dessert OR b) a type of fruit preserve set with the fruit's own pectin.

A general dictionary that can be flipped between US and UK English (Collins) has entry for jelly here. RPSM (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

An American (west coast) here... I have never heard anyone refer to jam as jelly, nor seen it misused on labels. As far as I know, the term "jelly" (as applied to fruit preserves) is only used to describe fruit juice set with pectin. If someone referred to "strawberry jelly", I'm pretty sure most people would be slightly confused, and would assume it contained no actual fruit chunks or pulp. The "Regional Terminology" section cites "jelly donut" vs "jam donut", which shouldn't apply, since (in my experience) most bakery-bought jelly donuts are filled with a non-chunky, corn starch thickened fruit compote, similar to a canned pie filling. This type of filling is truly neither a jam nor a jelly. Okay, this rambled a bit, but the point is, jelly is not normally used to refer to jam in America, in my experience. I'll add a "citation needed" and see what happens. - Marcus erronius (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Reference to The Science of Jam and Jelly Making and Science & Technology of Jams and Jellies

The Science of Jam and Jelly Making UK Cooperative Extension Service (University of Kentucky College of Agriculture) RPSM (talk) 12:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Science & Technology of Jams and Jellies Dr. Malcolm Bourne RPSM (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Vogue for gelatin salads now passé

http://www.buzzfeed.com/briangalindo/17-horrifyingly-disgusting-retro-gelatin-recipes#.pv2loN8nn RPSM (talk) 07:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

merge Konfyt

I suggest to merge Konfyt here, there are no pictures, nothing in particular to separate it from other variants, basically a regionalism of the same thing.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the merge to here. Should Confiture also be merged to here? Dbfirs 06:25, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree to merge Konfyt to here; why hasn't it already been done? I do not think Confiture should be merged also; the page implies that 'fruit preserves' is a subset of 'confiture'. This would suggest merging this page to Confiture, but I propose to leave them separate because of the high importance of this article as being the page for Jam. Any thoughts? Δουλοιεσμεν (talk) 22:06, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Support the merger per WP:CFORK. --Maumivi (talk) 10:47, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per consensus. —usernamekiran(talk) 20:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

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Fruit preserves → Fruit preserve – Per WP:SINGULAR. Steel1943 (talk) 20:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - There's no such thing as "I have a fruit preserve jar" in English, it would instead be "I have a jar of fruit preserves". The current title is correct._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals) and WP:Commonname (Google ngrams). Dbfirs 06:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Imbalance between Jam, Jelly, and Marmalade

The article needs some rework to better balance or distinguish the treatment of jam, jelly, and marmalade. I broke out the marmalade section instead of having it as a paragraph under Jam. The second level headings "Production" and "Packaging" refer only to jams, perhaps reflecting an original article entitled Jam. Can the comments in those sections be applied to Fruit Preserves generally, consistent with their status as second level headings? Or should they be brought under the Jams section? For reasons unclear to me, marmalade still has a separate article while jam and jelly are subsumed under the present title of Fruit Preserves. MidwestGeek (talk) 15:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Wojapi

Why does wojapi redirect to this article, yet the term "wojapi" is not mentioned a single time in the article's text? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:19, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Wojapi was created as a redirect; as such, this seems like a reasonable place for it to point to. If you have access to some reliable sources about the subject you can edit the redirect page to turn it into an article. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

History Section

The article could benefit from a section on the history of jelly and its origins and it became popularized. ForumRoleplay (talk) 17:00, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Cheese

As I mentioned on the’Cheese (dismbiguation)’ talk page, we could refer to the fact that thick jams are known as ‘cheeses’ on occasion in the U.K. (for example ‘damson cheese’, ‘crabapple cheese’ and ‘quince cheese’).Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I’ve just added cheese to the list of regional terms for fruit preserves. It can function as a synonym for thick jam in England as part of constructions like ‘damson cheese’ and ‘crabapple cheese’. The contrast is with ‘jelly’ which is used to refer to a thinner jam, such as ‘redcurrant jelly’, ‘crabapple jelly’ and even ‘bramble jelly’ (this is a synonym for the more usual term ‘blackberry jam’ which is occasionally seen, if I remember correctly this is used by Morrisons (the supermarket) to describe its own-brand blackberry jam). Using ‘jelly’ to refer to thicker jams like strawberry (which would never be described as ‘strawberry jelly’ or ‘strawberry cheese’ in the U.K - with the exception of ‘jelly’ or ‘jeely’ sometimes being used in Scotland) is, nonetheless, an Americanism. I’m glad that the disambiguation page for cheese links to the similar ‘quince cheese’ but we could do with an article called ‘cheese(jam)’ or a section on ‘Cheese’ for this article. ‘Cheese’ is certainly no rarer and no more confusing a term than using ‘butter’ to refer to a fruit preserve, so this approach would be justified. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

To complicate things further, ‘cheese’ is occasionally used to mean ‘curd’, so there are uses online and mentions in dictionaries of things like ‘lemon cheese’ meaning ‘lemon curd’, though it’s not something I’ve ever said or heard spoken. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Why is chutney listed as a preserve?

While chutnies can have preservatives added to it, but why does that make *all* chutney food preserves? On the Chutney page, it is not described as a preserve. Also I don't get why that source is a valid one KMMineCube (talk) 03:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Q: why no section on history of fruit preserves?

Howard from NYC (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Nutrition needs to be added

Although heating will destroy vitamin C, other nutritional aspects of fruits are retained and we need to provide discussion of the nutrition provided by preserves just as any other food. Significant minerals and micronutrients may be derived from preserves and should be provided for our readers. The source I used to use for micro-nutrient information has changed and no longer provides the extensive lists of the nutrition in each food...

please advise if you know of a site that not only lists vitamins and minerals — but micro nutrients, phytonutrients, lipids, etc. for individual foods. _ _ _ _ 83d40m (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The only reliable nutrition analysis source we use on Wikipedia is the USDA FoodData Central, but there are no legacy or foundation analyses provided because preserves/jams are prepared differently by each manufacturer or person. Only "branded" results are available, such as this group of 176 analyses for strawberry jam, as an example. A common American brand like Smuckers provides little information of use.

I think it is futile to represent nutrition or phytochemical content for a manufactured product - it varies extensively due to starting material and methods, and cannot represent an encyclopedic topic. Zefr (talk) 20:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Jam defintely needs a standalone

Jam is incredibly important, how come it doesn't have a standalone? Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 13:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

because Jam is just a fruit preserve and having it's own article makes absolutely no sense Angryman120344 (talk) 13:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

How so? Jam has its own article in other language Wikipedias. It's deservant of its own article when we compare it to like half of the food and drink articles, it is more important. Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 16:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)