Talk:1946 North Vietnamese legislative election

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Change the name of article to 1946 Vietnamese National Assembly election

Hanam190552 (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2015 (UTC)The election was held in national wide, we should let the name is 1946 Vietnamese National Assembly electionHanam190552 (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly the proposed name is not in line with the naming convention WP:NC-GAL#Elections and referendums. Secondly, the statement about it being a nationwide election does not appear to be true. According to the Nohlen book "Direct national elections were first held in 1946 on the territory controlled by the DRV." (DRV being North Vietnam). Number 5 7 16:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, on March 9th, 1945, French colonist surrendered the Empire of Japan and accepted to bring all control in Indochina, including Vietnam, to Japanese, you can see in in Japanese coup d'état in French Indochina. Secondly, on August 19th, 1945, Japanese colonist surrendered Việt Minh, the main force fighting against Japanese in Vietnam, and on August 22th, 1945, Emperor Bảo Đại, the highest leader of Empire of Vietnam and Nguyễn Dynasty abdicated, granted all control and bureaucracies to Việt Minh and recognised that the Democratic Republic of Vietnam was the new and the only administration of Vietnam. Thirdly, on September 2nd, 1945, Ho Chi Minh the highest leader of Việt Minh declared the official independence of Vietnam and the establishment of Democratic Republic of Vietnam. As the result, the DRV really controled over all territory since the surrender of Japanese on August 19th, 1945.

In Vietnam, parliament is called as National Assembly because it has only lower house.

So the name of the 1946 Vietnamese National Assembly election is eligible to this contextHanam190552 (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hanam190552 (talk) 04:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)This is the list of member of the first National Assembly[reply]

The list contains 333 elected candidates and 70 others became member of the first National Assembly without election. Members are listed in accordance with voting areas, where they are elected^[1], ^[2]. The election was held in all areas of Vietnam, including Saigon (Chợ lớn and Gia Định), Hue, Hai Phong and Cochichina (Rạch Giá, Bạc Liêu, Biên Hòa, Thủ Dầu Một, Tân An, Mỹ Tho, Bến Tre, Trà Vinh, Vĩnh Long, Sa Đéc, Hà Tiên, Long Xuyên, Cần Thơ, Sóc Trăng, Gò Công)

Hà Nội

Lai Châu

Lao Cai

Nguyễn Viết Quỳnh

Hà Giang

Nguyễn Tri Phương (Thanh Phong)
Vương Chí Thành

Cao Bằng

Lạng Sơn

Hải Ninh^[4]

Quảng Yên^[4]

Sơn La

Yên Bái

Tuyên Quang

Ma Văn Kinh
Tạ Quốc Tiêu (Tạ Xuân Thu)

Bắc Cạn

Thái Nguyên

Bắc Giang

Bắc Ninh

Phú Thọ

Vĩnh Yên^[5]

Phúc Yên^[5]

Hòa Bình

Quách Công Chẩm

Sơn Tây^[6]

Hà Đông^[6]

Hải Dương

Hưng Yên

Hải Phòng

Kiến An^[7]

Thái Bình

Nam Định

Thành phố Nam Định

Hà Nam

Ninh Bình

Thanh Hóa

Nghệ An

Vinh - Bến Thủy^[8]

Trần Văn Cung
Nguyễn Tạo (Nguyễn Phú Doãn)

Hà Tĩnh

Quảng Bình

Quảng Trị

Thừa Thiên^[9]

Huế^[9]

Đà Nẵng

Lê Dung

Quảng Nam

Quảng Ngãi

Bình Định

Phú Yên

Khánh Hòa

Kon Tum

Plê Cu^[10]

Lâm Viên^[11]

Ngô Duy Diễn (Ngô Duy Đích)

Đắc Lắc

Phan Rang^[12]

Bình Thuận

Đồng Nai Thượng^[13]

Tuprong Hiếu^[3]

Thành phố Sài Gòn - Chợ Lớn^[14]

Chợ Lớn^[14]

Gia Định^[14]

Bà Rịa^[15]

Dương Bạch Mai

Biên Hòa^[16]

Thủ Dầu Một^[17]

Tân An^[18]

Mỹ Tho^[19]

Bến Tre

Trà Vinh

Nguyễn Duy Khâm
Dung Văn Khúc (Dương Quang Đông)
Nguyễn Văn Tây (Thanh Sơn)

Vĩnh Long

Sa Đéc^[20]

Châu Đốc^[21]

Hà Tiên^[22]

Nguyễn Văn Kỉnh

Long Xuyên^[21]

Cần Thơ

Sóc Trăng

Gò Công^[19]

Rạch Giá^[22]

Bạc Liêu

Nguyễn Văn Đính (Hoàng Kế Ngô)^[3]
Ngô Thị Huệ
Cao Triều Phát Hanam190552 (talk) 04:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

^ http://www.quochoi.vn/htx/Vietnamese/C1454/?cateid=1701
^ https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danh_s%C3%A1ch_%C4%91%E1%BA%A1i_bi%E1%BB%83u_Qu%E1%BB%91c_h%E1%BB%99i_Vi%E1%BB%87t_Nam_kh%C3%B3a_I#cite_note-Qhoi-2
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah ^ai ^aj ^ak ^al ^am ^an ^ao ^ap ^aq ^ar ^as ^at ^au ^av Các đại biểu sau đó bị Quốc hội truất quyền Đại biểu Quốc hội
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Quảng Ninh
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Vĩnh Phúc
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Hà Tây
^ Nay thuộc thành phố Hải Phòng
^ Nay là thành phố Vinh
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Thừa Thiên - Huế
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Gia Lai
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Lâm Đồng
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Ninh Thuận
^ Nay một phần thuộc tỉnh Đồng Nai, một phần thuộc tỉnh Bình Phước
^ ^a ^b ^c Nay thuộc thành phố Hồ Chí Minh
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Bà Rịa - Vũng Tàu
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Đồng Nai
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Bình Dương
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Long An
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Tiền Giang
^ Nay thuộc tỉnh Đồng Tháp
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh An Giang
^ ^a ^b Nay thuộc tỉnh Kiên Giang

We must not Việt Minh to identify with Indochinese Communist Party-Vietnam Workers' Party

Việt Minh is the Vietnamese name of Allied League for the Independence of Vietnam, who is in allies of World War II to fight against Axis. Indochinese Communist Party, the old name of Vietnam Workers' Party, is a part of Việt Minh. In the election, Ho Chi Minh and doctor Tran Duy Hung were representatives of Việt Minh in Hanoi. Việt Minh, not a communist party, was a party in the 1946 election. All of Vietnamese sources use Việt Minh, not Indochinese Communist Party or Vietnam Workers' Party.Hanam190552 (talk) 03:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is English-language Wikipedia, and English sources use Indochinese Communist Party-Vietnam Workers' Party. Your complaint should be redirected to the Vietnamese Wikipedia if you have a problem with the content there. Number 5 7 16:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Same dispute revisited

So, a couple of new accounts have showed up and have restarted the dispute. There appear to be two main things disputed here:

Whether the elections were nationwide or not, and
The results.

Firstly, the extent of the elections. The Nohlen book is clear that it was only in the areas controlled by the North Vietnamese government (page 324: "Direct national elections were first held in 1946 on the territory controlled by the DRV"). On the other hand, two sources are provided for the claim that it was a nationwide election, this and this. These both appear to be official government sources, which I do not believe are reliable – this book notes that "Predictably, the Propaganda Ministry asserted enthusiastic southern participation in the elections."

Secondly, the results. We have two sources with quite different results. One is an academic source, the other is this, which on closer inspection does not actually contain the entirety of the results in the table.

Of further note, this version of the page is a clear copyright violation of this source. If it's added again, I will be requesting the page be locked. Number 5 7 22:11, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New source in support of 1946 Vietnamese National Assembly election

With regards to sources provided by the Vietnamese government, which can be deemed unreliable, I have found another trusted source indicating the 1946 election was nationwide. The source is from Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU). As you can see in the IPU report about the 1976 election (link: http://archive.ipu.org/parline-e/reports/arc/VIETNAM_1976.PDF), it was clearly stated in Page 70 that "The 1976 legislative elections represented the first nation-wide balloting in Viet Nam since 1946." This explicitly implied that the 1946 election was conducted in the entire Vietnam following the August Revolution of 1945. IPU is a global inter-parliamentary institution established in 1889 with 178 members and has permanent observer status at the United Nations General Assembly. I am pretty sure that their statement must be reliable enough. --Nguyen.asia.18 (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The IPU source is not really independent as the information for each country is usually supplied by the parliament in question, hence why the language in the source is so positive about an uncompetitive election ("the electorate was called upon to strengthen the soon-to-be unified State."

Various books support the existing text in the article (noting that it was an election in the areas of Vietnam controlled by the entity that became North Vietnam) – e.g. this ("Southern Vietnam had only seven of twenty provinces listed in the National Assembly roster, suggesting that local authorities in thirteen provinces had been unable to conduct even rudimentary election exercises") or this ("Viet Minh-sponsored elections were held in January 1946 in Tonkin, in Annam, and in the parts of Cochinchina where the French — who had returned to Sagon with the expectation of re-establishing their authority in the country — had little control.")

This is basically the same as 1948 North Korean parliamentary election, which was claimed to be a nationwide vote and had seats reserved for South Korea, but only really took place in the parts of Korea controlled by the DPRK government. Number 5 7 15:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. But the problem with using the term "North Vietnam" is that it may not accurately reflect the territory of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) at the time the election took place. Vietnam is only divided until the Geneva Accords of 1954. Viet Minh gained the territories of the former Empire of Vietnam from the Japanese, established the DRV in most of nowadays' Vietnam in 1945 and held the legislative election in 1946 in Tonkin (North), Annam (Central) and parts of Cocochina (South) (as you said above). Between 1946 (when the French came back) and 1954, the DRV lost most territories to the French-controlled State of Vietnam (which later known as South Vietnam when America replaced France and sponsor the Republic of Vietnam). By using the term "North Vietnam" to the 1946 election, it could be confusing to the readers as it implied the election only took place in the 17th parallel north (which is territory of the DRV after 1954, which commonly known as North Vietnam). In short, there was no "North Vietnam" before 1954. Using that term may be confusing to the readers. If we can't agree on using the term "Vietnam" for the 1946 election, I would suggest use the term "1946 Democratic Republic of Vietnam legislative election" instead of the current title. Nguyen.asia.18 (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.quochoi.vn/htx/Vietnamese/C1454/?cateid=1701

[2] ttps://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danh_s%C3%A1ch_%C4%91%E1%BA%A1i_bi%E1%BB%83u_Qu%E1%BB%91c_h%E1%BB%99i_Vi%E1%BB%87t_Nam_kh%C3%B3a_I#cite_note-Qhoi-2

[a-3] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j ^k ^l ^m ⁿ ^o ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t ^u ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z ^aa ^ab ^ac ^ad ^ae ^af ^ag ^ah ^ai ^aj ^ak ^al ^am ^an ^ao ^ap ^aq ^ar ^as ^at ^au ^av Các đại biểu sau đó bị Quốc hội truất quyền Đại biểu Quốc hội

[b-4] Nay thuộc tỉnh Quảng Ninh

[c-5] Nay thuộc tỉnh Vĩnh Phúc

[d-6] Nay thuộc tỉnh Hà Tây

[e-7] Nay thuộc thành phố Hải Phòng

[g-8] Nay là thành phố Vinh

[h-9] Nay thuộc tỉnh Thừa Thiên - Huế

[i-10] Nay thuộc tỉnh Gia Lai

[k-11] Nay thuộc tỉnh Lâm Đồng

[l-12] Nay thuộc tỉnh Ninh Thuận

[m-13] Nay một phần thuộc tỉnh Đồng Nai, một phần thuộc tỉnh Bình Phước

[n-14] Nay thuộc thành phố Hồ Chí Minh

[o-15] Nay thuộc tỉnh Bà Rịa - Vũng Tàu

[p-16] Nay thuộc tỉnh Đồng Nai

[q-17] Nay thuộc tỉnh Bình Dương

[r-18] Nay thuộc tỉnh Long An

[x-19] Nay thuộc tỉnh Tiền Giang

[t-20] Nay thuộc tỉnh Đồng Tháp

[u-21] Nay thuộc tỉnh An Giang

[v-22] Nay thuộc tỉnh Kiên Giang

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