User:DVQuebec/Draft:Pichenotte

Sept 29 2020 To the Editors SMcCandlish, David notMD, and others:

Here is a rather long introduction for my suggested revisions to the entry for PICHENOTTE. There are two main varirations of the game of PICHENOTTE, square and round, and I believe it is accurate and helpful to include other variations of the game and uses of the word. I know almost nothing about the square version of the game, although I briefly owned one, and I find it odd that there are no references or citations about it. I have reached out to the representatives of the square game, both FQJR (Federation Quebec de Jeux Recreations and AJQP Association de Jeux Quebec aux Pichenotte in Quebec about their games and rules and inquired aboutg who makes them, but they have never replied to my phone calls or emails.

Following the introduction are my references and citations.

As I have mentioned, I have a hobby making the round version of pichenotte boards since 1997. My Quebec grandfather made a round pichenotte board in 1926 that we still have. My Quebec relatives and friends all refer the both the round and square board as pichenotte.

Perhaps there could be separate entries? Round Pichenotte Square Pichenotte

Millions of people play the square version and love it. Main object is shooting for the 4 corners Millions of people play the round version and love it. Main object is shooting for the center hole.

By the way, I am very good friends with a large number of crokinole makers in Canada including The Crokinole Depot Mr Crokinole Crokinole Canada Crokinole GameBoards World Crokinole Championships which we attended in 1999. See

I am internet friends with the maker of pitchnut. Pitchnut (TM) is most likely an anglicized form of pichenotte

Surely, someone can find a better suggestion for obtaining a square boards than Pinnochi , a company that seems to be out of business. I don't know of any companies, other than carrom companies. There must be high quality square boards other than 'carrom' boards, but I don't know of any at this point.

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1) What millions of Quebec residents know, is that the word pichenotte refers to many games involving a flicking action. They use the word instead of carroms, crokinole, and croquignole. They play pichenotte hockey, pichenotte football, and when they flick each other on the nose or the head, they say they they are giving a pichenotte. Pichenotte is a common name for animal pets such as dogs, cats, and birds.

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2) The current entry for pichenotte states: "The term is sometimes also mistakenly used as the actual name of other games of this class, such as carrom and crokinole."

Who or what is the authority to be cited ? Who is pronouncing this judgement ? and to what purpose ?

3) The current entry for pichenotte states: "While the specifics are uncertain, pichenotte certainly must have originated from the Indian game carrom. In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants."

Rather than say 'it must have' without any reference or citation, it could be stated more correctly that 'perhaps' pichenotte originated from the Indian game of carrom.

4) The current entry for pichenotte states: " Another variant of the game called pitchnut" the reference would be here https://pitchnut.com/#

5) I suggest that the first line should give a translation of the French word, not launch into a definitive statement with no reference. Pichenotte is an Old French word meaning Flick. It is hard to find the word in any current printed French dictionary. I have looked extensively at loca libraries. Most often Pichenette is found, from which the word pichenotte evolved.

Now, to the game of Crokinole. (Not that I want to start arguments with Crokinole players, but let's look at the word and the origins.

From The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly First Edition [[1]] "Origins of the name'' The name "crokinole" derives from croquignole, a French word today designating: in France, a kind of cookie (or biscuit in British English),[9] similar to a biscotto; in French Canada, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape).[11] It also used to designate the action of flicking with the finger (Molière, Le malade imaginaire; or Voltaire, Lettre à Frédéric II Roi de Prusse; etc.), and this seems the most likely origin of the name of the game. Croquignole was also a synonym of pichenotte, a word that gave its name to the different but related games of pichenotte and pitchnut. Crokinole is called knipsbrat ('flick-board') (and occasionally knipsdesh (flick-table)) in the Plautdietsch spoken by Russian Mennonites."

ThreeVictors: So, it seems there is general consensus that CROKINOLE derived from the French word CROQUIGNOLE.

In the 'The Crokinole Book' First Edition Wayne Kelly " It is outstanding unusual that, in an age when countless trillions of words have been cranked off the press concerning subjects....next to nothing has been written about a highly popular social activity such as crokinole".

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Kelly also states on page 22 of The Crokinole Book " ...with regard to all responses and photographs received from museums, archives, historical societies and individuals polled from coast to coast....none added information as to the origin of the game."

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The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly ISBN: 0-919783-83-X Third Edition: ( spiral bound)

pg 41 "Similar to the search for crokinole history, a surprising lack of information about the game of carrom was positively the rule back in 1987 - at least here in North America. Happily, that void is now being addressed by several diligent researchers, historians, and game afficianados."

pg 49 " Great variety has existed in the size, shape and weight of the simple crokinole board." "The early octagonal boards (my personal favorite) weighed close to 11 pounds..." " Round boards, too, have had great popularity." " Round boards have the tendency to show up in specific geographic regions....in Waterloo and Wellington counties of Ontario and in various communities across Quebec"

pg 59

" The designs and dimensions of crokinole boards seems as varied as the men who turned a hand at making them".

ThreeVictors adds: Surely, Crokinole players the world over, owe a great debt of gratitude to Wayne Kelly, now deceased although his son Caleb is carrying the torch as 'Son of Crokinole at

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......................... .......................... MY SUGGESTED ADDITIONS, CHANGES AND REFERENCES/ CITATIONS FOR PICHENOTTE

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Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'.

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Pichenotte is a United States Trademark

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The Quebec Museum of Civilisation 'aka' Musee de la Civilisation de Quebec has two collection exhibits for the game of 'pichenotte'.

The round board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation

The square board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation

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THE ROUND GAME OF PICHENOTTE The game can be played with two, three or four players. If four players, they can play as individuals or teams of two. - On the round board, the playing surface is raised above the floor of the board and is surrounded by a ditch enclosed with an octagonal or round wall. The board is divided into four quadrants with three scoring zones made up of three concentric circles and one center hole. Eight posts, positioned equally around the innermost scoring circle line, surround the center hole. The object of the game is to knock your opponent's pucks from the board while keeping your own on the board.

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- The aim of the round game is to score as many points as possible, while limiting those of your opponent. At the end of play, all pucks left on the board are counted (according to their position in each of the three scoring zones) and added to any pucks that came to rest in the center hole (these are removed from the board). For a detailed description of the rules in New Mexico see: Easy Rules Tournament Rules

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The round game also has other names, which does cause confusion, such as:

French: Croquignole flick, biscuit, bun

English: Crokinole - Anglicized form of the French Croquignole

German: KnipsBrat - the flicking board

The word pichenotte is used liberally to describe other games that include the action of flicking. Such as Pichenotte Hockey

There seems to be no book references to the square game of pichenotte, however, there is an important book about the round game aka crokinole called The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly Publisher: 1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada 2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012 ISBN: 0-919783-83-X 1. Crokinole (game) I. Title GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-8

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There are newspaper articles about pichenotte tournaments and events in Santa Fe, New Mexico:

1) Tavistock Gazette September 27, 2020

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2) Santa Fe New Mexican October 27, 1998

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3) Santa Fe New Mexican December 19, 1999

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4) The Albuquerque Journal August 10, 1999

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There are many webpages confirming the common knowledge that pichenotte also refers to the round game scroll to the end of this page

Let's look at some round pichenotte boards for sale on the web:

Let's look at some pichenotte tournament photos from New Mexico

Friend and Family Playing Pichenotte Photos

See also should include www.pichenotte.com

Book ReferencesBold text (even though no mention is made of Pichenotte) The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly Publisher: 1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada 2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012 ISBN: 0-919783-83-X 1. Crokinole (game) I. Title GV1312 K44 1988 794 C88-093933-

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Pichenotte is often used as a pet name for dogs or cats

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ThreeVictors (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 15:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 15:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 16:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)ThreeVictors (talk) 16:14, 29 September 2020 (UTC) ThreeVictors (talk) 16:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, and I would like to offer my opinion.

I think it best to delete the PICHENOTTE entry. Although some of what is on there is correct, it is of very limited scope and limited value. If a credible editor or team of editors can do some research and bring forth an accurate and inclusive entry, it would be great. The current entry lacks citations and credibility. AQJP seems a defunct and archived website and yet it is the only cited website and reference. I hope that can change if a credible editor or group of editors researches the word and brings forth an accurate, useful and inclusive entry. Thanks. DVQuebec DVQuebec (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)