Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)

Spworld2 has added 1989 as the year of formation in Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) citing a source that does not say about the year of year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), while Spworld2 added 1926 as the year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Is this original research?. Having nothing to discuss Spworld2 resort to the use of the WP:CONFLICT which Spworld2 clearly has since Spworld2 is not ready to produce the sources for Spworld2's claim, which is also EK Samastha's claim of being itself the original or real Samastha. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The source Spworld2 used to say the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was in 1989, in the infobox, is this one. This source does not say about the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), rather the split of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama in 1989. So kindly remove it from the infobox. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I have informed Spworld2 about this discussion. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

a discussion going on - Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(AP_faction)_&_Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(EK_faction) Spworld2 (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Asking about the same dispute on two noticeboards is not helpful.

That said… I don’t see an Original Research issue here. BOTH of the modern organizations claim to be the “true” continuation of the original. There are plenty of sources that note that this is the case. There are also sources that support the claims of one or the other. What I am getting at is this: none of the “foundation” dates originate here on WP, with a WP editor. It is a dispute that exists out there, in the real world. So it isn’t “original” for WP to state any of these dates.

As for the WP:NPOV question regarding which which “foundation” date should go with which faction - I would ask others to assist at the other discussion (over at that noticeboard). I won’t address that question here. All I am saying here is that I don’t see a WP:NOR violation in any of this. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

But the sources Spworld2 cited do not support the claim. If there is no source to support it it is original research. If it is not original research, both Samasthas should have the same date of formation. Neutralhappy (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

There several other unsourced content in the article Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Neutralhappy (talk) 18:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Why this discussion on WP:ORN started is that WP:NPOVN says:

This page is not a forum for discussions unrelated to the neutral point of view. We have a separate noticeboard for concerns about original research (material made up by a Wikipedia editor), and another dedicated noticeboard for questions about contextual reliability of a source.

Because it is not permitted to discuss the matter of orginal research on WP:NPOVN, the aspect of original research on the matter was taken to WP:ORN Neutralhappy (talk) 23:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of content from Early life of Joseph Stalin

Recently, editor LenLen499833 has removed a large, well-sourced chunk of content from the article Early life of Joseph Stalin, specifically related to an affair between Stalin and an underage girl. The editor argued that the removed content did not stem from reliable sources, despite the fact that it was based on the work of several highly respected Stalin biographers such as Simon Sebag Montefiore and Stephen Kotkin. In my opinion, their arguments against the researchers (see the 2nd section titled "Relation with Lidia Pereprygina" on Talk:Early life of Joseph Stalin) are original research: They basically say that they know better than the published researchers because of a) a dubious birth record for an alleged child of Stalin's affair, and b) doubts about some of the sources used by the biographers.
I tried to explain WP:No original research to them, without much success. Then, I requested third-party opinions from other editors who had often edited Stalin articles. One responded, and suggested that we rewrite the section to clearly attribute claims and showcase any valid concerns over the historicity of the affair. I agreed to the idea, but LenLen499833 opposed any restoration of the sourced content because they believe that all of it is just false / lies, based of their own interpretation of the matter.
As I cannot find common ground with LenLen499833, I wanted to ask here whether their removal of content is indeed original research or whether I'm in the wrong in this regard. Thanks in advance. Applodion (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

If there are sources that discuss the alleged affair and child, and you are merely reporting what they say (without going beyond what they say), then you are not in violation of WP:NOR. The material does not originate with Wikipedia. There may be issues with other policies and guidelines, but not NOR. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar: My question concerned whether LenLen499833's arguments constituted OR - i.e. whether it was fine to remove an entire well-sourced section of content based on LenLen499833's interpretation of birth registers and primary sources. Applodion (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Any arguments in talk page is not OR: this policy is about article content. Regarding primary sources: our policies say that primary sources should be used only as a corroboration of the article content based on secondary sources. Because a Wikipedian is not in a position to judge primary sources. Heck, today we even cannot be sure that the sources found online are authentic.:-) That said, yes, the issue is NOT OR, but article content and must be discussed on article talk page. We have a procedure for dispute resolution. Initially it was between you two, then you had a third opinion. Pleas suggest a compromise solution along the lines I outlined in the article talk page (provide the suggested text in the talk)). If this will not help, the next step is invoking broader community via WP:RFC. --Altenmann >talk 16:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Ellen G. White

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
At Ellen G. White#Theology there is a mention she was the "lone exception". I don't know where those words come from, neither whether they should be stated in the voice of Wikipedia. I don't know whom to notify about this thread. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Number one, you don't start here at a noticeboard. You use the article's talk page. You also look in the contribution history and find out who made that addition, then you civilly ask them about it. There is no need for dispute resolution at this stage. So go back to the talk page and start there. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) @Tgeorgescu: The sentence has a footnote and it is supported by the previous text. Why you are questioning this? --Altenmann >talk 19:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Lengthy OR at the Stellar engine article

~40% of the article Stellar engine consists of a section, primarily written by one editor, on why published designs for star-moving megastructures contradict physics and could never exist in the real world. There are no references to sources, reliable or otherwise, for the assertations made in the section.

It seems like the entire section should be removed as original research, but since I haven't edited Wikipedia before and the starter guides recommend only doing small edits at first, and later edits to the article have not removed the section but instead modified it to state that these are opinions not yet supported by scientific literature, I thought maybe I should ask about it here first? I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about this, sorry if not. Mhazandaren (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@Mhazandaren, I understand your hesitancy in removing the content yourself. I've removed it and notified the editor of the need for reliable sources. Schazjmd (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright! Mhazandaren (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alastair Sweeny

Alastair Sweeny (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article was posted directly or indirectly by the subject himself, as a self-promotional item. There is no external documentation because no one external has ever written about him. This article has been deleted before in the early 2000s, again because it was only self-promotional.Ron B. Thomson (talk) 14:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This seems more appropriate a topic for Articles for Deletion than here, since it concerns the whole article and not just a part. Reconrabbit 15:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

New Democratic Party

There is an edit war in New Democratic Party about its political position, with multiple users breaking the 3-edit rule. In the talk page, it looks like some users are trying to change the political position based on original research and based on other wikipedia pages (ie. by arguing that certain ideological words correspond with certain political positions on other pages), and that the words in RS "don't have absolute meanings". Argenator (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator has an RfC

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Vells (talk) 05:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Nicosia Airport

An editor has carved out an event on a day in the Military operations during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus#23 July 1974 to create the Battle of Nicosia Airport. No credible sources that anybody can find - including the editor in question - uses the term "Battle of Nicosia Airport". Would appreciate any other input into this. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Frederiksberggade 1

User:Ramblersen2 has created many articles on notable buildings in Denmark, containing very detailed information about all known previous inhabitants (of the current and former buildings on the same location), compiled from census records. Frederiksberggade 1 is the most recent example. Example paragraph:

At the 1801 census, No. 140 was home to 45 residents in eight households. Jacob Rosted resided in the building with his wife Frideriche Dau. a maid and two lodgers (carpenters). Anne Christine Linne., a widow, resided in the building with two sons (aged 12 and 15), a maid and two students. Gertrud Marie Greis, a widow teacher, resided in the building with a maid, Peder Armstrøm (a planter from Saint Croix and the latter's 11-year-old black servant. Johan Gotlieb Blau, a pharmacist, resided in the building with his wife Christine Winkler, their two children (aged three and five), two maids, three pharmacists, two pharmacist's apprentices and a caretaker. Philip Gebhart von Thun (1756–1828), a captain in the Royal Danish Navy, resided in the building with his wife Anette Mathisen, a two-year-old daughter and two maids. Rasmus Larsen, a beer seller (øltapper), resided in the building with his wife Marie Hansen and their eight-year-old daughter. Ole Hansen, a barkeeper, resided in the building with his wife Juliane Hobroem their trhree children (aged 13 to 18) and a maid. Niels Andersen, a beer seller, resided in the building with his wife Anne Cathrine Jensen and their two children (aged two and three).

We have a disagreement whether such information is acceptable or should be removed. Fram (talk) 14:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fram, is there a discussion anywhere other than in edit summaries? I think it's unencyclopedic trivia that should be excluded, but I'd like to hear Ramblersen2's argument for inclusion first. Schazjmd (talk) 14:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

User talk:Ramblersen2#WP:OR. I had also informed them of this discussion, as their input is of course necessary. Fram (talk) 14:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I have for quite some time worked on creating articles on all heritage listed buildings in Denmark. In some cases, typically in inner Copenhagen, it is difficult to find sources with more than very basic information. As a supplement to other available sources, I have then relied on information from the earliest available census records (typically 1787, 1801, 1840 and sometimes a few more) in piecing together the early history of the property/building. I think the information from the census records is instrumental in highlighting what sort of people lived in the building, what sort of businesses were operated from the premises etc. In many cases, the same people have contributed to the evolution of the property by adapting then, constructing warehouses etc. If we have an article on a marginally notable (typically heritage listed) building, I think we may just as well make it an informative one, rather than leaving it as a fairly uninformative start-class article. The information from the census records is always supplemented by all the other sources I can dig up, old illustrations etc. I don't think it is correct to refer to published information from census records as "primary sources" or "original research". But I have been in doubt as to how I should present the information to avoid it turning into something that might qualify as original research. And I have then ended up going with the form that seemed to get the best ratings by a range of different reviewers over a quite long period of time. And I have wanted to stick to a somewhat consistent approach. In some cases, I can see that it seems more relevant than in other. In some cases, it would no doubt be better to provide a summary of the composition of residents.Ramblersen2 (talk) 16:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I could see an argument for a brief paragraph summarizing "what sort of people lived in the building, what sort of businesses were operated...". But a prose-list that is merely a directory of residents from over 200 years ago? How is that relevant or helpful? Schazjmd (talk) 16:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It should be removed. That amount of excessive intricate detail is not related to how or why the building is notable in the first place. This type of detail - Peter Christian Kierkegaard resided in the first-floor apartment to the left with the theology student Otto Harald Benedictus Boisen - is not relevant or notable information about the building.

In order for any named resident to be included in the article, they must be notable themselves. For example, see: Notable residents of the Dakota or Notable residents of the Brentmore or Notable residents of The San Remo. Also see WP:NBUILDING for the guidelines on notability for buildings. And danishfamilysearch.dk is a questionable source as well, since it appears to allow user generated content. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I was going to comment the same, but it's already been done. danishfamilysearch.dk appears to be user generated content (you can create an account here[1]), so shouldn't be used for any verification purposes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is any problem with using danishfamilysearch.dk. Creating an account gives you access to more daily page views and you can transcribe untranscribed census records but the page publishes the original census record which is not user generated content.Ramblersen2 (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, danishfamilysearch.dk is an unreliable source and when are you going to remove all those excessive details from the article? Isaidnoway (talk) 17:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. And even if the transcriptions or images of census records is unimpeachable, they're WP:PRIMARY and not normally used as sources. EEng 06:23, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a giant world of these articles, all sourced primarily to danishfamilysearch.dk. Can somebody go through [2] and assess these articles? There seems to be oodles of WP:CRUFT in need of removal and they pretty much all fail WP:NBUILD. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Is this SYNTH

Moved from WP:AN § may I have a ruling on SYNTH?

 – Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I often see instances of SYNTH being invoked in what I believe to be a fallacious manner to justify exclusion of content. Like UNDUE, I perceive that SYNTH is often invoked in CT articles in a way that suggests the actual objection is IDONTLIKEIT. that said, I might be wrong.

SYNTH says:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources

so, if one reliable source says:

Former President Trump has for several days now spread lies and spouted conspiracy theories about the federal government’s response to Hurricane Helene. The disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers.[3]

and another reliable source says:

Former President Donald Trump has delivered a barrage of lies and distortions about the federal response to Hurricane Helene ... Over a span of six days, in public comments and social media posts, Trump has used his powerful megaphone to endorse or invent false or unsubstantiated claims.[4]

while a third reliable source says:

Republican and Democratic politicians and officials have in recent days resorted to pleading with people to stop spreading false information related to Hurricane Helene, with many saying that rumors and conspiracy theories are hampering recovery efforts ... The false claims have primarily taken hold among media, politicians and influencers who support former President Donald Trump and come at a particularly crucial juncture, with less than a month until the 2024 election. Trump used his high-profile return to Butler, Pennsylvania, where he was nearly killed by a gunman, to continue to spread false claims about FEMA.[5]

would it be SYNTH for an edit to say:

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts

in my view, citing multiple sources which together create a composite edit is not the same as SYNTH. soibangla (talk) 23:41, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not an issue for AN. You should bring this to WP:NORN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's an example of SYNTH.Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, soibangla, we need a source that explicitly links the misinformation that Trump has spread to the misinformation hampering recovery efforts. From only the text of the sources, there could be some specific things A that Trump is saying, and some specific thing B that's hampering recovery efforts, both of which are misinformation, but with different content. To link A and B without a source saying so would be original research. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is a dispute regarding a particular article and edits (as you seem to be citing), then you should also link and include them. Context does matter.

But given the text read on its surface, and if the sources are in fact RS for the article, and that they are a representative sample of "press outlets", then your final sentence is fine to summarize. However, in my opinion, again without any context (because you haven't given it), it should take a more conservative approach to summarizing a combination of sources fairly -- one should think more towards intersection rather than union. Not all three sources used the same descriptors, but your summary listed all the descriptors with an "and" connector -- this seems like too much. If each source says two words, then maybe you should only say two words; if each source uses a different word, maybe connect with "or" instead of "and".

Edit: reading User:Alpha3031's addition above: this is why I need context, to find out what shades of meaning are at issue, and how much info is in the sources, given that I'm not gonna be reading them. If the NBC News source is the only one saying that the rumors are "hampering recovery efforts", but it does not tie any of that to Trump's public information apparatus and his own conspiracy mongering, and if the other sources do not make that connection either, then the sentence is simple synth. I.e. PBS reports Trump spreads conspiracy theories; NBC reports conspiracy theories hamper efforts; wikitext says Trump spreads conspiracy theories which hamper efforts = Synth. 04:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC) SamuelRiv (talk) 04:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

but PBS reports "The [Trump] disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers" and CNN reports "Trump has used his powerful megaphone to endorse or invent false or unsubstantiated claims," while NBC reports "The false claims have primarily taken hold among media, politicians and influencers who support former President Donald Trump" and "rumors and conspiracy theories are hampering recovery efforts." I do not see the resultant edit as synth. soibangla (talk) 05:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say the easiest way to eliminate OR concerns would be the two sentence version, without stating in wikivoice that disinfo A and disinfo B are the same. The first sentence can say that there are lies and distortions are 1) spread by Trump and 2) causing confusion, and the second can say disinformation is hindering efforts, without attributing the disinformation. The particular article and article talk discussion seems to be here, by the way. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's the link for context: Talk:Hurricane Helene#there is no SYNTH in this edit.

I came to the same conclusion as Alpha3031 and SamuelRiv. There is synthesis here. We can say:

• Trump has spread disinformation about the federal response[1][2] and FEMA.[3]
• By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had spread disinformation about the federal response for several days.[1][2]
• Disinformation spread by Trump about the federal response is causing confusion for those affected by the hurricane.[1]
• Trump spread misinformation about the federal response through public comments and social media posts.[2]
• Public officials have asked those spreading false information about the hurricane to stop and that it has hindered recovery efforts.[3]

So then we could come up with text like "By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had spread disinformation about the federal response for several days,[1][2] in public comments and social media posts,[2] and that it was causing confusion for those affected by the hurricane.[1]" You could also use "Public officials have said that disinformation about the federal response hindered recovery efforts.[3]" But you can't put those next to each other in a way that implies they're the same exact disinformation, because implied synth works the same way as any other synth. I'd also discourage using "lies", because that doesn't fit with Wikipedia's impartial tone, which is going to be slightly different from a journalistic tone. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

what is the difference between "implied synth" and "any other synth?" I'd also discourage using "lies" except that's what two reliable source actually say, and one says "disinformation" which is deliberate, rather than "misinformation" which can be inadvertent. I suppose there could be strong consternation by some that after years of reporting Trump speaks "falsehoods," reliable sources now report he's lying. this consternation gives rise to my concerns of some editors using any means, including allegations of synth, to exclude well-sourced content because they just don't like it. soibangla (talk) 06:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's explain wp:synth in the abstract as it applies here. RS #1 says "A is causing B". RS #2 says "B is causing C". We can summarize #1 and #2, but we cannot say "A is causing the B that is causing C".

Why not? It seems like basic logic, right? Well the real world doesn't work like that, because every real statement has particular scope with particular omission. "A is causing B" as said by a real source RS #1 about a real event does not necessarily mean it is causing all known B, such that when real source RS #2 talks about B, it must be encompassed within the set defined by RS #1. There are many ways to exploit this kind of logic-language disconnect to simply lie (using only true statements), which is part of why synth rules can seem pretty strict. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

the edit does not say A causes B and B causes C. rather, it says A causes part of C and B causes another part of C.

A = lies, disinformation, conspiracy theories

B = lies, distortions

C = lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories soibangla (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It is synth because it is saying something not stated in any of the sources, that public official say Donald Trump's spreading of misinformation has hindered recovery efforts. In fact, it is probable that the officials specifically chose not to lay the blame on Donald Trump.

Also, per WEIGHT, if we want articles to state a conclusion, then there should be a source that explicitly says that.

In fact, while you can say that Trump spread misinformation in articles about him, you cannot add that spreading misinformation has harmed recovery efforts, because that would be implicit synth. It would imply that Trump had hindered recovery efforts through spreading false information.

Wikipedia articles should not make accusations against Trump, or any other subject, but should report explicit accusations that have been reliably reported. TFD (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is pure synth because no source says that Trump ... created confusion and hindered recovery efforts. TarnishedPath^talk 10:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about what the totality of all sources on the topic say, but if you are talking about only the three sources quoted in the original post of this thread, then yes, this is obviously synthesis under any sane reading of policy. This is almost exactly the same thing as the examples given at WP:SYNTH.

The extreme obviousness with which this violates the policy makes me suspect that the question is not being asked in good faith. jp×g🗯️ 11:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The original content was added by them here to the Hurricane Helene article. PackMecEng (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

it is a good faith question, but you can go ahead and question my sanity if you like. soibangla (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

this slight rephrasing has been suggested. is this synth?

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories. Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

soibangla (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2024 (UTC)