Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

Welcome to the no original research noticeboard
This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

"Late modern period"

The article late modern period (currently a redirect) was originally created without any actual sources defining the topic. It was just assumed that the existence of the early modern period meant there had to be a late "equivalent". But the term is actually very marginally used among historians and is often specific to the a period of English literature. It seems to be mostly based on the misunderstanding of how the modern period is defined, which is either c. 1500 until today or c. 1800 until today, depending on the context.

Almost a year ago, there was a clear and umabigious request[1] to provide sources to define the "late modern period" at talk:late modern period up for several months. No sources that actually describe the term unambiguously as "the period following the early modern period" have been provided, only references to search hits for the phrase "late modern" or "late modern period" in prose.

From what I can tell, there are several users who want to flat-out ignore WP:OR and even WP:N in order to keep late modern period because it "feels" logical and convenient. Periodization is in my view treated as though it was merely a subjective layout issue rather than something has to be verifiable and balanaced. It's as if a lot of Wikipedians think it's okay to disregard sources in favor of their own take on how history should be written and organized.

I would appreciate input on this over at talk:late modern period to help build a more sensible consensus around this. Peter ^Isotalo 23:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Note that the BLAR is now being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Late modern period. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Is using sources to write about the existence of sources OR?

See Rust (programming language)#In academic research paragraph 1. I wrote it, but I'm a little bit unsure about whether it would be WP:SYNTH to use the existence of sources to imply something and not the content of them, or how I categorized some sources in the sentence for properties of the language itself as well as the utility the language provides for writing software used for research. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 18:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

No, this is par for the course. JDiala (talk) 09:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Is using sources published before the topic event OR?

On Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine (specifically the "Mentioning NATO in lead" and "Misrepresentation of WP:ONUS" sections), we are having an ongoing discussion about interpretations of WP:OR. Some of the sources in that article, particularly in the "background" section, utilize sources from prior to 2022, which was the year the invasion began. The user Mr rnddude has stated that he believes, whenever editing an article about an ongoing or recent event, it is WP:OR to make use of any sources published prior to that event. His logic seems to be that any reliable source authored prior to 2022 would not know there would be an invasion in 2022, and so attempting to connect their work to the invasion is an instance of OR. On the basis of this belief, he is attempting to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article altogether and is also reverting edits which introduce pre-2022 sources into the article.

Myself and another editor, Chino-Catane, expressed a concern that his viewpoint on this matter may not be mainstream, as many other articles regarding ongoing or recent geopolitical events (including homepage-linked articles and GA articles) do not follow this standard and allow for some sources published prior to the event's occurrence especially in the "background" (or similar) sections. Mr rnddude however is insisting that his position is the correct one.

Is Mr rnddude correct? And if so, does this mean that existing articles which make use of pre-event sources need significant overhauls? Thanks. JDiala (talk) 00:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the specific discussion or material that is contested there, but there are background statements for which it would be fine to use older sources. A hypothetical example: one can cite a reliable source from 2021 that says that Putin began his fourth term as President of Russia in 2018.

It depends on the nature of the statements for which the pre-2022 source is being cited. Editors should definitely be careful of synthesis directly relating pre-2022 sources to post-2022 events. — MarkH₂₁^talk 00:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I know a lot of people who hold Mr rndude's view. More broadly, they (not necessarily including Mr here anymore) hold that every source used in an article should be about that article's subject. It's a consistent and reasonable position. I disagree slightly in most cases and strongly in a few exceptional cases (none of which are relevant here). For this article, I think those folks are mostly right, since the invasion is such a well covered topic. There might be a hundred or more reliable sources that describe the background to the invasion. If one can't be found that mentions a particular background detail, it probably should not be included.

I'd be unlikely to challenge obvious, uncontested, entirely neutral facts, like Mark's example, but if someone did challenge them, I'd fall back pretty quick. Maybe Putin's 2018 election isn't a detail worth mentioning, if no RS are mentioning it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that editors should definitely be careful of synthesis. But wouldn't this kind of rule have rather problematic consequences in all sorts of areas, for scientific topics for example, the ongoing event of scientific research, where you have 'pre-event' conjectures/hypotheses and experimental results/discoveries. It doesn't seem like OR to connect published hypotheses about gravitational waves, for example, that pre-date observations/results, to the experimental results. A post-event only rule for sources seems too restrictive. Obviously, it's all context dependent. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I think sources published before the outbreak of the war about the possibility of a war could (or even should) be cited in a background section. Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• I think one needs some modern-day RS that connect directly the subject of the page (the invasion) with specific events of past that appear in the "Background" section. Otherwise, this will be WP:SYN. However, as soon as we have and use such RS, nothing prevents from using additional older sources that only describe events in the "Background" section. My very best wishes (talk) 03:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

This is for such specific example. But in general, no, there is no such requirement. An article on subject X may include various aspects or subcategories, A,B,C (for example, an article about enzymes can include parts about hydrolases, transferases, etc.), and the sources can be about these aspects A,B,C, not necessarily directly on the whole subject X. Well, in this example no one will dispute that hydrolases and transferases are enzymes (hence belong to the page). This may be much less clear for historical events. In some cases, the connection may be so trivial that it does not require supporting references. But if the connection was disputed, then providing some supporting RS is necessary to avoid WP:OR. My very best wishes (talk) 15:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not have time to address this whole section. I will briefly reproduce my actual statements, as having read the talk page response, I do not for a moment trust that Jdiala has accurately summarised them here. My statements at the talk page regarding OR are as follows:

The way to write a background for this article is to cite present, up-to-date sources that provide the background information and analyses themselves. You do not need, nor should you be referring to, outdated sources to achieve this. You will be hard pressed to present a convincing argument for how a source that cannot so much as discuss the article's subject is directly related to it. - The last comment here refers to the abundant use of sources that pre-date not only the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but the whole war that started in 2014.

Compile a selection of sources on the Russian invasion of Ukraine that provide background coverage on NATO-Russia / NATO-Ukraine relations and an analysis on their impact leading up to the invasion. Write a paragraph or dedicated section about it from those sources.

You may not use sources that do not discuss an article subject to make claims about the article subject. Present that statement to any admin you like, they will tell you some variant of: no shit. - You can feel the frustration of dealing with this user at this point. Particularly their incessant insistence on abusing the word 'fringe' with regards the preceding statements.

The 'pre-invasion statements' section is a composition of original research through the use of sources unrelated to, and without comment on, the article topic: "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support[b] the material being presented". None of that should be transferred here, and all of it should be removed from the prelude article. Do not base whole sections of an article on sources that do not and can not comment on the article topic. - This was a comment I made in an unrelated discussion that cites the specific wording of WP:OR. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

JDiala - You say that [o]n the basis of this belief, he is attempting to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article altogether and is also reverting edits which introduce pre-2022 sources into the article. I have done neither of these things. I have not removed or attempted to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article, nor have I been reverting additions to the article. This is, as you have presented it, a bold-faced fabrication. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mr rnddude, I perhaps should have been more circumspect with my wording, and I should also have been clear that it is not just you but rather a few other editors as well (e.g., My very best wishes) involved in the discussion; these latter editors were the ones reverting the new edits by Chino. I can also concede that this was not always the only argument for removal, but it was a significant one as indicated by how many bytes of text were spent discussing it. I apologize if you felt I misrepresented your views.

Putting aside these quibbles, I maintain that I made a good-faith attempt to describe your point of view based on what you said in the talk page discussion. The user ManyAreasExpert stated "please don't base [the NATO discussion] on outdated sources, as, after the start of the invasion, every pre-2022 source is outdated, and will be deleted", which was based on his interpretation of OR. This struck me as a strong, absolutist position, and it was what led to that user's discussion with Chino and I. You then later chimed in saying that you felt ManyAreasExpert's citations of OR were "accurate" and that "outdated" sources should not be referred to. You offered no qualification in your support for ManyAreasExpert's position. Based on this, I inferred that you too felt that "every pre-2022 source is outdated" and should "be deleted", as the person you were defending, ManyAreasExpert, said exactly this. JDiala (talk) 06:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say mostly yes, sources should be in the context of the article's subject outside of obvious essential facts. Sources are just as necessary when verifying relevance as they are when verifying facts. I recently wrote a short essay about how I think articles like this should be written. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• If a recent source indicates that topic A is relevant to the article, then there is nothing wrong with using an older source to flesh out content about topic A. It isn't automatically SYNTH. In the example of the Ukraine invasion, I don't see anything wrong with using an older source for information on how Ukraine achieved independence from the USSR, because these two things are frequently presented together in modern sources. It would only be SYNTH if editorial conclusions regarding the invasion were drawn from the older source. The underlying confusion here derives from the "directly related to the topic of the article" clause which is an example of poor wording that does not unambiguously express either the intent of the policy or of common practice. The "topic of the article" is not just what is narrowly defined by its title, and in this example past events which, according to RS, are relevant to the invasion are included in the topic of the article. Zero^talk 05:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mr rnddude is incorrect. Adding sources from prior to an event in a background section is not automatically WP:OR or WP:SYNTH (to be more specific). TarnishedPath^talk 06:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Not automatically, agree. But it's easy to imagine that happening, and UNDUE stuff may creep in as well. I have not looked at the specific article under discussion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree, that background sections can get a bit long and some editors may then attempt to COAT in their view of history. But if the argument is that having background sections, which use sources prior to an event in that the article is in relation to, is necessarily original research then I think that's patently wrong and far off common practice. TarnishedPath^talk 05:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

TarnishedPath - I'll try to be brief. It is not my contention that the mere presence or inclusion of sources from prior to an event is automatically WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. My contention is that basing large tracts or whole sections of an article on such sources constitutes original research. The presence of a stray older source in the background is a distraction, particularly as at present there is a stray current source in that section. Of the present citations: 16 pre-date the event (~half are older than the whole conflict itself), 5 are contemporaneous, and a few are undated but I'll assume they are contemporaneous. That is an over-reliance on sources that don't and can't comment on the present conflict. Contrasting with the other presently on-going major conflict, the background section to the Israel-Hamas war has a mere 2 pre October 7th, 2023 sources and approximately 40 post October 7th, 2023 sources. That is a chasm in approach and without doubt the latter is far superior in quality to the former.

I don't think any pre-2022 source is necessary for the article, there are ample current sources that cover all of the relevant subject matter, but if there is a reliable source from 2021 that says that Putin began his fourth term as President of Russia in 2018 or other such minutiae as MarkH21 presented as an example it doesn't matter remotely to me. I'd prefer – and were I writing such a section myself would employ only – those sources that either 1) speak directly on the topic of the article or 2) are referenced by sources that speak directly on the topic of the article. That's reflective of my actual editorial approach. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a look later. TarnishedPath^talk 05:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

We are in no need to generalize here. And the vice versa, if we can't generalize, it does not mean that we are allowed to dive into OR and synthesis on which sources are relevant to the event and which are not.

We have a specific article and a situation where a huge amount of post-2022 analyses are available for use. If some editor wants to keep pre-2022 sources to make a conclusion which post-2022 sources do confirm? Just use post-2022 source! If we want to use pre-2022 sources for a conclusion for which there is no post-2022 sources? The answer is obvious. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It is OR. The reason you include what preceded the event is to explain what caused the event. Saying something caused the event is OR and must be sourced. If something is relevant to the invasion, then you should be able to find a recent source that says that. TFD (talk) 05:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Jordan Peterson

There is a dispute on the Jordan Peterson article Talk page concerning the climate change section of the article. One key question is: how should editors use primary and/or secondary sources to decide what the article should say about Peterson's contributions to the debate on climate science and climate policy? Additional input from experienced NORN contributors would be appreciated. Newimpartial (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Oldest institute for agricultural research?

In the wiki on INRA it is stater that this is (or maybe) the first institute for agricultural research in Europe. However, in the wiki on the ‘history of Wageningen University and research you can read that the institute DLO (governmental Agricultural Research Service) was founded in 1877, and several new sub-institutes from 1888 onwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A456:35A:1:B4A4:136B:BFEF:40EF (talk) 16:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Paraphrasing official legal texts

I'd be interested to get more thoughts on where to draw the line between what qualifies as "original research" vs "reasonable paraphrasing" on articles about Law, when quoting directly the actual text of law (e.g., quoting the constitution, or a text of law).

For example, in "Draft talk:Contravention in French criminal law", one paragraph states:

Article 34 of the Constitution, which pertains to the scope of the law, does not include provisions concerning contraventional offenses, in contrast to crimes and misdemeanors: "The law establishes the rules concerning: [...] the determination of crimes and misdemeanors, as well as the penalties applicable to them.

My opinion was that it would be acceptable for this paragraph to rely only on a primary source (article 34 of the constitution), since the first sentence only makes non-controversial statements that can be easily checked by opening the actual text of the law (i.e., that article 34 doesn't contain any statement related to contraventions but contains statements related to crimes and misdemeanors), and the second paragraph is just a translated quote from that article.

However, in this discussion, @Mathglot was of the opinion that this would qualify as original research unless it is supported by a secondary source.

I agree that other parts of the draft are likely problematic, but I'd be interested in getting more opinions on that particular paragraph, to get better lens on how I should think about OR on legal topics in general. I feel like law (especially in civil law countries) typically relies a lot more on primary sources than other domains such as science where primary sources cannot always be trusted (e.g., due to bias of the authors). Hence I would have expected a lot more weight be given to primary sources given they are the "source of truth" of an entire legal system.

7804j (talk) 13:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Mathglot is right here. As Wikipedia editors we should not be assumed to have the legal expertise to understand the important factors of laws and court rulings to be able to quote or directly paraphrase them. Thus we must rely on secondary sources that are reliable for this type of reporting to help us explain laws or the importance parts of court rulings that we can include. — Masem (t) 14:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, 7804j, I plan to leave this discussion primarily to others unless called upon, but wanted to clarify something. In your OP above, you said: "...when quoting directly the actual text of law", but then later you talk about having a paragraph "...to rely only on a primary source", and that seems quite different to me. I read the former as meaning you want to copy the law word-for-word and double-quote it (no problem), and in the second, you want to have a paragraph that "relies" on the law, by which I understand not word for word, and not double-quoted, i.e., somebody's rewording, or interpretation (big problem).

So I think we need to be clear about which situation you are talking about here. As the linked discussion was solely about the second case (paraphrased), I'm assuming that is your main intent here, but if I'm wrong about that, please clarify. In connection with an article that is well-sourced to our standards, I have no objection to copying text from a law or Constitution directly into a Wikipedia article, as long as it is word-for-word exact, enclosed in double quotes, properly cited, and reasonably brief. (Long extracts, or even the entire French criminal code is public domain, and you may copy the whole thing if you wish—if it isn't already—to Wikisource, and then link to it from the article.) But I believe you are not asking about that case, but a loose paraphrase of the law, a very different situation, and in my view, that is off-limits. Mathglot (talk) 03:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

OR at White ethnostate

White ethnostate has an entire section listing "Historical attempts to create White ethnostates". The problem is that there are zero sources describing any of these as "attempts to create White ethnostates". Editors came to the conclusion that they are by taking the definition of "White ethnostate" from one source and then applying it to historical events described in other sources, which is textbook WP:SYNTH. The entire section needs to be removed. I proposed doing so on the talk page, but editors there don't consider this an OR problem, even though they admit the term "White ethnostate" was coined recently and there are no sources applying it to the historical events in question. Un assiolo (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

for context i highly recommend reading the whole discussion at Talk:White ethnostate#Nazi Germany as a "White ethnostate", especially User:Grayfell comment "One of the problems here is that the article is not about the term 'white ethnostate', it is about the concept of a white ethnostate. We requires that sources directly support attached statements, but we do not require that they use any specific wording to do so. "Ethnostate" is a relatively recent term which appears to have been coined around 1990, and reliable sources are free to use other terms to describe this concept." wikipedia is not a dictionary Gooduserdude (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Suppose this were about a different term – for example, fascism. Would it be acceptable to take a definition of fascism from one source and combine it with a source describing a politician's words or actions, and then claim the politician is a fascist, without a source explicitly saying so? Clearly not. How is this any different?

"Ethnostate" is a very specific term with a very specific meaning, while the "historical attempts" described are generic racism. That is why I am nitpicking about sources: there are no sources because these historical events do not fit the definition. --Un assiolo (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)