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July 21

Attestations of Ishtar in later eras

I've been under the impression that the goddess Ishtar is not much attested after the bronze collapse. Not necessarily that the goddess disappeared, but that the name went out of vogue. What late inscriptions are there?

Temerarius (talk) 15:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

If she is considered the same goddess as ʿAštart, she was worshipped into the 2nd century CE.  --Lambiam 20:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking specifically for the latest attestations of the spelling Ishtar.

Temerarius (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

In ancient times, each relevant language had its own adapted version of the deity name (Greek Astarte, Hebrew `Ashtarot, etc). The alphabetic spelling "Ishtar" didn't exist until the 19th-century decipherment of Cuneiform script by modern European scholars. The cuneiform spelling of Ishtar could not have continued in use longer than cuneiform script itself did; according to our article, "The last known cuneiform inscription, an astronomical text, was written in 75 AD. The ability to read cuneiform may have persisted until the third century AD." -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

July 22

List of authors of the Atlas Van der Hagen

Is there such a thing as a list of authors of the Atlas Van der Hagen? In case this is an easier question: What I really want to know is whether John Ogilby was one of them. Elinruby (talk) 02:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Atlas Van der Hagen-KW1049B13 058-The City of ALGIER.jpeg has "Artist/Author John Ogilby". It is not clear to me, though, what this is based on.  --Lambiam 14:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Where is this shop, in "Portway", United Kingdom?

Postcard hand-labelled "The Stores, Portway"

The reverse of the above postcard, published in the United Kingdom, is hand-lettered "The Stores, Portway". Where is or was it? Can we date it more precisely? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

As it's you, I'm presuming the Portway is the one in Rowley Regis, West Midlands. Which would put it here, on 11 Portway Rd (there's a matching hill behind too).

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4934044,-2.0417817,3a,35.9y,311.95h,93.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sXN-dVEbwjrkejOaLY5x_2Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DXN-dVEbwjrkejOaLY5x_2Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D311.951541624746%26pitch%3D-3.2204070573608448%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu Andy Dingley (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Others agree, though it's coincidence that it's local to me. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Details such as the shape of the house and roof, the brickwork and placement of the chimney and doors and windows agree, so there can be little doubt it is the same building, unless a very similar building did not survive. (The building at 9 Portway Rd is its mirror image, and 20 Portway Rd is very similar, so more of the same type may have been built.)  --Lambiam 13:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is a specimen of the same type of post card, estimated to be from "circa 1910s".^[1] Image searches did not turn up ads or packaging for Fairy Soap, Lyons Tea or Lyons' Extract with matching text and lettering.  --Lambiam 13:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I was amused to notice that the front door advertised Lyons' tea and coffee while the adjacent window advertised that "People who know drink Lyons' Extract" instead. Either Lyons was hoping for a presence in all markets or else they seem to have been undercutting themselves! --142.112.148.225 (talk) 02:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Tea, coffee, and (coffee & chicory) extract were three different products from J. Lyons and Co.'s extensive range of food products. Tea and coffee are beverages, Lyon's extract was mainly a cooking ingredient. Hardly surprising that a grocery would carry all three. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 11:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

My initial thoughts flew towards that section of the A4 road known as Portway, Bristol, but happily I didn't need to worry. MinorProphet (talk) 17:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

July 23

File:Secret Service Director Hosts RNC Public Safety Briefing.webm

Any clue who the people in this video are (other than Kimberly Cheatle obviously). I assume they must be high ranking officials and not just random SS agents Trade (talk) 00:19, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The man is FBI Special Agent in Charge Michael Hensle.^[2]  --Lambiam 13:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The woman is U.S. Secret Service 2024 RNC Coordinator Audrey Gibson-Cicchino.^[3]  --Lambiam 13:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

"Mary was not the mother of Jesus"

I'm not quite managing to wrap my head around this bit in Trojan Horse scandal:

At the Oldknow academy, children were asked whether they believed in Christmas and encouraged to chant "no we don't" in response. The pupils were told at an assembly not to send Christmas cards and that Mary was not the mother of Jesus.

The original source is the "Kershaw Report", I believe (see opening paragraph of the article lede for context):

We are told that in or around December 2013, a Christmas assembly was held during which statements were made that children should not be sending Christmas cards, that Jesus was not born of Mary and that it was unbelievable that Christians believe in the Christmas story; children were encouraged to chant `No, we don't' when asked questions such as `Do we celebrate or believe in Christmas?' and whether they believed that Jesus was born on Christmas day.

The basic idea is that this is portraying "Islamists" disparaging Christianity by disparaging Christmas, I take it. Claiming that Mary was not the mother of Jesus seems a strange way to go about that, though. Going by Mary in Islam and Jesus in Islam, they're both somewhat major figures in the Koran (dozens to hundreds of mentions), and their relationship is clear and no different than in the Christian version. The modern Christmas tradition is such a hodgepodge that it takes practically no effort to pick any number of holes in it, so why come up with something so outlandish?

Maybe this is just a straightforward mistake? Like, someone at the assembly in question did say that, but that someone was a giant ignoramus, or someone else downstream misunderstood or misremembered what was said? Or maybe I'm missing something... which is why I'm posting this.

Thanks for any elucidation!

- 2A02:560:4DE3:6F00:8DF4:9B2E:34:B383 (talk) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Double quotation marks are for quotations in general. Single quotation marks are for quotations within quotations. (I believe that in some old forms of English it might have been the other way around, but I'm sure it is this way in most forms of English today.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

wp:deny
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The source for the claim that children were told that Jesus was not born of Mary is behind a paywall. Can you quote the relevant passage? 92.29.249.130 (talk) 16:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

This one?

At the Oldknow academy, children were told at an assembly that they should not send Christmas cards and that Mary was not the mother of Jesus. Children were asked whether they believed in Christmas and encouraged to chant "no we don't".

I'm assuming their source is the report I quoted in the OP, so I skipped straight to that.

- 2A02:560:4DE3:6F00:8DF4:9B2E:34:B383 (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, the usual strategy is to flip between single and double at each level, AFAIK. So quotations within quotations use whatever the outer quotation didn't use, and quotations within quotations within quotations go back to whatever the outer quotation did use, and so forth. Using singles for the outer quotation is a bit, but not a lot, unusual in modern writing, I'd say.

- 2A02:560:4DE3:6F00:8DF4:9B2E:34:B383 (talk) 16:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

In American English, the double quotation marks are on the outside, the singles on the inside. In British English, the opposite is common, but not universal; a habit originating in the late 19th century. There are more languages where single outside – double inside is common (for example Dutch, which has copied British habits). PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The Mary and Jesus of Islam differ in a number of ways from the Mary and Jesus of the Bible or Christianity: In the Qur'an, Mary is identified with Miriam of the Old Testament (the daughter of Amram and the sister of Aaron), while Jesus did not die on the cross, but only appeared to do so (reviving the old Docetic heresy). However, there's nothing about Jesus not being the son of Mary, and I don't think that such a belief is mainstream among Muslims, according to any information I have. However, disrespecting non-Muslim holidays is more widespread (some varieties of Sunnism in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. disrespect those Shi`i holidays which are not also practiced by Sunnis). AnonMoos (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

One possible explanation is that the author of the report made up the story that the children were told that Mary was not the mother of Jesus, ignorant of their significance and relationship in Islam.  --Lambiam 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Possible, yes, but again, it doesn't make much sense to me that someone simply making stuff up would come up with this, when there's such a wealth of more pertinent and plausible ways to criticize Christmas. The explanation that seems least unlikely to me at this point is that this is a case of Chinese whispers, basically: Something was said at the assembly, and something ended up in the report as a result, but there was so much distortion in between that the sense was largely lost. Especially if the report relied on a single account for this, and if the person giving the account was a child.

- 2A02:560:4DE3:6F00:8DF4:9B2E:34:B383 (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

If the author made this inflammatory accusation based on unverifiable hearsay, it is just as bad as making it up. In either case they are ignorant about the religion they seek to disparage. Criticism of Christmas as having become a pagan feast in servitude of Mammon is also raised by Christians. Whatever the origin of the story, the reason it was selected for the report must have been that the author knew it would offend the religious sensibilities and draw the ire of a segment of his audience.  --Lambiam 20:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

To put it another way, the author wanted publicity. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

July 24

un fine

Inspector Maigret (Rupert Davies) has just walked into a bar and asked for "un fine" and to talk to the patron. It's far too long since I drank in France, was the commissaire asking for a cognac? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 23:51, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a brandy: a cognac or possibly one of the others listed on the French Wikipedia [4] (upon translating the page with Google). Modocc (talk) 06:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikt:fine#French:

Noun - fine f (plural fines) - a number of high grade French brandies (usually AOC certified). Alansplodge (talk) 13:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully, monsieur le commissaire asked for une fine, or he might have been served with a fine for grammatical impropriety.  --Lambiam 19:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

July 25

Path of would-be Trump assassin Crooks

There is conflicting information when, during the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the would-be assassin Thomas Matthew Crooks was first spotted on "the roof" or "a roof". While our article currently follows media who claim that he had been spotted on a/the roof at 5:52 p.m., even directly by the Secret Service, other media report that he was climbing on the roof where he shot from at 6:09 p.m. (which makes a lot more sense). It seems possible that Crooks was on another roof first and then climbed from roof to roof. Either way - has the path he took from the ground to his shooting location been somewhat reconstructed by now? I didn't find anything in the news as available online. --KnightMove (talk) 10:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, ABC News is the main source for this timeline, which is most certainly wrong. But it motivates my question. --KnightMove (talk) 11:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, why do you think the abc timeline is wrong? Blueboar (talk) 12:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems entirely plausible that he climbed on to the roof (perhaps unencumbered by his rifle, but with his rangefinder), climbed down again (to retrieve his [hidden?] rifle and set its range), and then up again to carry out the attack. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

1. Crooks actually climbed on the roof ~6:09 p.m., as per many witnesses and reliable sources.
2. Crooks being on the roof since 5:52 in sight of the Secret Service; the Secret Service not doing anything against him, but leading Trump to the podium; AND Crooks then not firing, although he had so much time to prepare and some 7 min opportunity to shoot at Trump unimpaired - that's total nonsense (and fodder for conspiracy theories).
3. There is even evidence to deconstruct how that error happened. This BBC article somewhat supports the error, although their own facts in the article make clear what happened:

"Later, around 17:45 local time, Crooks was spotted again, this time by a counter sniper officer around the Agr International building - the one the gunman later scaled up to aim at Trump."

"By 17:52 - 19 minutes before the shooting - the Secret Service was made aware that Crooks was spotted with a rangefinder, and disseminated that information to other officers on site, CBS reported."

So another (!) counter-sniper - not the Secret Service counter-sniper teams who would later aim at Crooks - spotted Crooks around (!) the roof, and at 17:52 the Secret Service was informed about this.

And some media merge this into the wrong claim "Secret Service snipers spotted Crooks on the roof at 17:52". --KnightMove (talk) 12:49, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It is my understanding that two different organisations were involved in the maintenance of security, the Secret Service (federal, ie your counter snipers) and a local (?) organisation, be that state or entirely private (the person who initially confronted the assassin, was threatened with the firearm and "dropped" off the roof). It may be possible that the communication between these two entities was grossly deficient. Of course, this is pure speculation in the absence of reliable official information. --2001:871:6A:1B71:B0F9:2533:F61:54B2 (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI and the Pennsylvania State Police each also had a role in implementing the security measures around the rally.^[5][6]  --Lambiam 19:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

J B Priestley quotation

In 1970, Isacc Asimov wrote two short stories, "2430 A.D." and "The Greatest Asset", inspired by the following quotation:

Between midnight and dawn, when sleep will not come and all the old wounds begin to ache, I often have a nightmare vision of a future world in which there are billions of people, all numbered and registered, with not a gleam of genius anywhere, not an original mind, a rich personality, on the whole packed globe.

The above Wikipedia articles on the short stories, and many other on-line sources, attribute this to J B Priestley. However, as far as I can tell, it doesn't appear on any standard list of Priestley quotations (including WikiQuote), but only in connection with the Asimov stories. Did Priestley actually write this? If so, where? If not, did someone else write it? It's unlikely that Asimov made it up himself, but not impossible. 194.73.48.66 (talk) 17:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It's from a 1957 book called "Thoughts in the Wilderness", which you can view (with restrictions) on archive.org - the quote is on page 127. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

J. B. Priestley (1957). Thoughts in the Wilderness. London. p. 127.  --Lambiam 19:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I've added the title of the book to the Asimov articles. 194.73.48.75 (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Bohnert's Ethics

One question, does anyone know Bohnert's system of ethics and deontic logic and can explain it or link to an explanatory text? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:9B9B:C02B:F5CC:22D1 (talk) 21:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Who is Bohnert? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Herbert G. Bohnert (1918-1984), philosopher, professor at Michigan State University. I cannot help with OP's question. --Wrongfilter (talk) 06:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, searching in websites related to logical positivism et al brings no trace of Herbert Bohnert. There is a stack of H. Bohnert´s publications in Google Scholar which may be useful to your research. --2001:871:6A:1B71:C00:3397:39D7:68BE (talk) 17:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems that mentions of Bohnert in connection to deontic logic refer to: Herbert Gaylord Bohnert, "The Semiotic Status of Commands". Philosophy of Science 12:4, 1945, pp. 302–315. It is available online (doi:10.1086/286873) but behind a paywall. He appears to attempt to give a translation of commands to propositional logic. Very roughly, let $S$ stand for "Sam eats his veggies" and $P$ for "Sam is punished". Then the command "Sam, eat your veggies!", denoted formally as $!S,$ is given the meaning $S\lor P,$ "[Sam eats his veggies] or [Sam is punished]". Or, as Sam's mother might phrase it, "Sam, eat your veggies, or else!".  --Lambiam 22:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

July 26

Allah (peace be upon him)

Would it be considered unusual for someone to say "peace be upon him" after mentioning God himself the same way that Muslims say it after mentioning any Islamic figure? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Based on Peace be upon him (Islam), I would think not. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The term "peace" in this phrase means "the peace of God". It would be just as strange as to say "May God have mercy upon Him", where "Him" refers to God Himself.  --Lambiam 22:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Kind of like saying, "God bless God." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

John 12:28? --Trovatore (talk) 20:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Right. He will glorify His name, and He will be a bust (be a bust, be a bust) in the Hall of Fame. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: Although I found the Hall of Fame part to be funny, your repetition of "be a bust" in parentheses makes me think you're trying to make a reference to song lyrics. If that's what it's supposed to be, then I'm afraid I don't get what you're trying to reference here. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This:[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, we (species Homo Sapiens) seem to have created hundreds, or even thousands, of Gods in our image (and to our liking). Blessing your multiple fellow gods may be totally civilised if a random cluster of divinities meet in the supermarket. Quite possible, that they only smite, drown, immolate, holocaust or whatever registered believers of their own party. We seem to have no article to the treaties between Yahveh, Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster on negligable genocide. --2001:871:6A:1B71:6D4B:BB6E:1759:BC95 (talk) 14:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) From my last visit to a church I remember this benediction pronounced at the end of the service:

The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, and the blessing of God almighty, the Father, the Son, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be upon you and remain with you always.

These may not be the exact words - at school the Head said this daily at the end of assembly, but one day forgot the words and had to improvise. The Roman Catholic equivalent was the simple Ite, missa est until the Latin Mass was recently banned, much to the regret of the faithful, who consider the vernacular Mass inferior. 2A00:23D0:E1C:1301:6825:BE00:2408:BF0B (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

In the Abrahamic religions (including Islam), there is only the one God. Whether various Hindu gods would try to bless each other is beyond the scope of the OP's question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:45, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Having done some research, I found that Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, the Litany, the burial service, and some forms of prayer for use at sea, including "after victory or deliverance from an enemy" end with 2 Corinthians xiii.14:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Ghost, be with us all evermore.

The blessing at the end of the Communion service, the Ordination service, and "a form of prayer for the twentieth of June, being the day on which Her Majesty began her happy reign" is as follows:

The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God, and of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord: and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be amongst you, and remain with you, always.

If some people are being made deacons and some priests it is only said once. Note that the Archdeacon of Canterbury, like all other Archdeacons, is a priest or "clerk in holy orders" [8] (at 21:08) (note the reference at the beginning of the service to the Access to Justice Institution). The Confirmation service ends with these words:

The Blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be upon you, and remain with you for ever.

Before the blessing in the Communion service the Gloria in excelsis deo is said: in Latin (as sung at Catholic Mass) it begins:

Gloria in excelsis Deo; in terra pax hominibus

The Commination ("the denouncing of God's anger and judgements against sinners") ends with these words:

The Lord bless us, and keep us: the Lord lift up the light of his countenance upon us, and give us peace, now and for evermore.

Turning now to the Protestant Episcopal Church, a book published by the "Aux. N.Y. Bible and Common Prayer Book Soc.^y A.D. 1816" with the motto "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" and certified by Bishop Benjamin T. Onderdonk (who I see was the subject of misconduct allegations, like someone else I could mention) at New-York, June 1, 1832 says in the preface:

Rulers may have grace, wisdom, and understanding to execute justice, and to maintain truth;" Charles please note 'and that the People "may lead quiet and peaceable lives, in all godliness and honesty."'

The burial service includes Psalm 39¹³:

Hear my prayer, O Lord; and with thine ears consider my calling: hold not thy peace at my tears.

Thanksgiving was "the first Thursday in November".

The "form of consecration of a church or chapel, according to the order of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as established by the bishops, the clergy, and laity of said church, in general convention, in the month of September, A. D. 1799" ends as does the Communion.

"An office of institution of ministers into parishes or churches prescribed by the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America; established in general convention of the bishops, the clergy, and laity, 1804; and set forth, with alterations, in general convention, 1808" finishes with this benediction:

the God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ, the great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.

In the Roman Catholic Mass, after the Consecration there is a prayer for the dead:

Ipsis, Domine, et omnibus in Christo quiescentibus, locum refrigerii, lucis et pacis, ut indulgeas, deprecamur. Per eundem Christum, Dominum nostrum.

A little later, before the congregation receives the bread,

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

In the Discalced Carmelite proper offices: a supplement to the Divine Office the liturgy of the hours according to the Roman rite as renewed by decree of the second Vatican council and promulgated by the authority of Pope Paul VI (Carmelite Priory, Boars Hill, Oxford, 1990) the Benedictus at Morning Prayer ends:

He will give light to those in darkness, those who dwell in the shadow of death, and guide us into the way of peace.

Psalm 119 (120) is prescribed at certain hours on a solemnity:

V2: Deliver my soul, O Lord, from lying lips: and from a deceitful tongue.

V3: [a little clairvoyance] What reward shall be given or done unto thee, thou false tongue: even mighty and sharp arrows, with hot burning coals

V5: My soul hath long dwelt among them: that are enemies unto peace.

V6: I labour for peace, but when I speak unto them thereof: they make them ready to battle.

Psalm 69⁴ wraps it:

They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head: they that are mine enemies, and would destroy me guiltless, are mighty.

Have we moved on from 1540 when, according to "On this day", "King Henry VIII of England had his chief minister Thomas Cromwell executed for treason and heresy"?

In The hours of prayer from Lauds to Compline inclusive compiled from the Sarum Breviary and other rites (third edition, London, 1928) Sunday and Monday at Lauds closes with a prayer "for the peace of the Church", the same as the one which concludes Compline, thus the last prayer of the last service of the day:

O Lord, we beseech thee mercifully to hear the prayers of thy Church, and grant that we, being delivered from all adversities, may serve thee with a quiet mind, and enjoy the peace all the days of our life; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth, with thee and the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end.

On Tuesday to Saturday, Lauds concludes with the "ferial [weekday] petitions", which include the following:

V Peace be within thy walls

R And plenteousness within thy palaces

The same (Psalm 122⁷) is said on Tuesday at Vespers.

Terce on Sunday ends with the prayer "May the souls of the faithful, through the mercy of God, rest in peace."

But in most (though not all) varieties of Christianity, 'God' is said to comprise a trinity of three persons, including also 'Christ' and 'The Holy Ghost', so persumably Christ could bless The Holy Ghost (etc.). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 20:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

That would still amount to God blessing God. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point: the theological contrivance would make that seeming absurdity possible, if it were factual. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The Agnus Dei features in both the Mass and the Communion service. In Latin it concludes:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.

It is sung after the Prayer of Consecration.

In the Mass approved by C Eykens, Vicar General, at Antwerp on 24 January 1966, if the celebrant is a bishop he says "Peace be with you" after the Gloria in Excelsis. After the Prayer of Consecration he blesses himself:

omni benedictione coelesti et gratia repleamur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum.

He then prays for the dead:

Memento etiam, Domine, famulorum famularumque tuarum___et___, qui nos praecesserunt cum signo fidei, et dormiunt in somno pacis.

Then follows the prayer quoted earlier, beginning Ipsis, Domine. In the Common of Our Lady, Psalm 137 is said, including the line Qui posuit fines tuos pacem (note the numbering of the Psalms differs). The Litany of the Most Holy Name of Jesus includes the line "Jesus, God of peace". In the evening prayers, the "Prayer for a happy death" is

O God, who has doomed all men to die, but hast concealed from all the hour of their death, grant that I may pass my days in the practice of holiness and justice, and that I may deserve to quit this world in the peace of a good conscience and in the embrace of Thy love. Through the same Christ Our Lord.

The Prayer for the Dead, (De profundis, Psalm 129 (130)) is followed by the words "May they rest in peace." Under "Various Devotions" the Litany of the Sacred Heart includes the line "Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation." The Way of the Cross includes the line "My loving Jesus, it was not Pilate; no, it was my sins that condemned Thee to die."

References

July 27

What is "official Islam"? ~ Encyclopaedia of Islam

Following quote from Encyclopaedia of Islam used by @Louis P. Boog at ongoing Talk:Jinn#RfC: Proposed additions of text 1 talks of wording "official Islam". The source Encyclopaedia of Islam entry by D.B. MacDonald and H. Massé does not seem to include specific definition of wording "official Islam".

• Requesting help in ascertaining, What is "official Islam"? to the authors D.B. MacDonald and H. Massé (based on either their individual academic literature or may be they imported term from Bibliography they used or general academic literature)

This question is formed with 'what' instead of 'which' due to it's academic aspect.

• Quote from Title: Ḏj̲inn, Encyclopaedia of Islam:

"..II. In official Islam the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted, as it is to This day, and the full consequences implied by their existence were worked out. Their legal status in all respects was discussed and fixed, and the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property, were examined. .."

~ D.B. MacDonald, H. Massé. Title: Ḏj̲inn. Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English) DOI: Source Editors: P.J. Bearman First-online: 24 Apr 2012 ISSN: 1573-3912 Publisher: Brill. Wikipedia Library link provided at WP:REREQ

Bookku (talk) 10:21, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Possibly written Islam as defined by trained and educated Ulama, as opposed to more folklorish or popular concepts? There have been some cases of folk Islam elaborations gaining acceptance among scholars of Islamic law... AnonMoos (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

This article:

Németh, Kinga (2024). "The Jinn – The Culprit of the Arabic World". Különleges Bánásmód, 10, Special issue, 107-122. doi:10.18458/KB.2024.SI.107

contrasts "official (Sunni) Islam" with "vernacular Islam", which incorporates beliefs based on vernacular legends. While the term "official Islam" is not explicitly defined in the article, it is connected in the text to the points of view of "Islamic institutions", "scholars of Islam" and "schools of Islam".  --Lambiam 13:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It means "standard/mainstream/mainline" Islam (coming in Shia and Sunni flavours). As supported by Islamic scholarship, or most of it. Arguably not an appropriate term, especially for the Sunni, any more than "official Protestantism". Johnbod (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

July 28

National Masturbation Day

In which countries, outside the United States, it is celebrated? CometVolcano (talk) 15:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The clue is in the title. It's national not international. Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:49, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

It is also known as International Masturbation Day. --CometVolcano (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

and? Nanonic (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if you can say this day is "celebrated". Masturbation itself is celebrated every day, year-round, worldwide. Very few people outside the US, and I suspect also in the US, will have heard of a day specifically designated as Masturbation Day.  --Lambiam 12:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Source? The folklore is that if you do it you will go blind. 2A02:C7B:107:4100:D868:90B:63A8:DAA6 (talk) 10:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

It would only make sense if it happened just one day per year. As with fireworks on July 4th. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

No fireworks on New Year's Eve? 82.13.6.9 (talk) 14:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That's also once a year. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

July 29

"Great Thoughts" anthology

Does anyone know anything about an anthology of poetry, titled "Great Thoughts", that was published before 1890 and probably after 1840? It's mentioned multiple times in a book I'm working on in Wikisource, with notices like this one that say some of the poems in this collection already appeared in "Great Thoughts". The book these mentions appear in is by a single author, a Alice E. Argent, but I don't know her birth date, so that can't narrow the search. Thanks, — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 14:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Possibly the series Great Thoughts from Master Minds, published by A. W. Hall, Hutton Street, London. DuncanHill (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Got it, that's it, since the first line of that poem is in there. Thanks for the help! — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 15:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Glad to be of assistance, many mentions of Alice E. Argent in newspapers of the period (1870s - 90s), including in connexion with Great Thoughts. DuncanHill (talk) 15:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, after digging a bit deeper, I was able to find her full name, birth/death dates, etc., and expand the Wikidata item. — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 15:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Dutch - pl. help confirm

Just I helped a little (probably new) user in their now accepted AFC article about nineteenth century speed skater Anke Beenen.

• Anke Beenen#Popularity says

  On 22 December 1879 her speed skating club "Thialf" paid attention celebrated her silver anniversary by building a large gate in front of the house of mayor Daniël de Blocq of Scheltinga on the Heideburen in Heerenveen.

1) The article's popularity section mentions one 'mayor Daniël de Blocq of Scheltinga'.

WP has an article Daniël de Blocq van Scheltinga of a twentieth century person. Obliviously they are supposed to be different persons being from different centuries but on safer side wish to get that confirmed.

2) I did not get why the club would create 'a large gate in front of the house of mayor'? Since I had already asked good number of questions to the new user I do not make new user that I am going after them.

3) '.. on the Heideburen in Heerenveen.' What is 'Heideburen' being referred to here?

Bookku (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

"The Heideburen" is a street. There is a Wikidata item Heideburen

"a large gate" sounds like a triumphal arch of some kind. Temporary ones would be erected to celebrate a victory, visiting royalty, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 15:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

the sentence seem referring to 'in front of the house of mayor', does not even say 'in front of the office of mayor' intrigues me; may be I am just over thinking Idk. Bookku (talk) 15:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps a bad translation? DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

that can be possibility. Many thanks for inputs Bookku (talk) 15:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

(ec)And the Van Scheltinga family seem to have included many Daniël de Blocqs. DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

According to the source used in the article (Leeuwarder nieuwsblad, 30 januari 1937), it was indeed a temporary arch, made from blocks of ice, on top of which three figurines were placed, depicting Beenen, her skating partner Jouke Schaap and the 'ice god' Thialf in the middle. The source also clearly says it was in front of the mayor's house. - Lindert (talk) 16:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for the confirmation Bookku (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The street, Heideburen, was then part of the municipality of Schoterland; you can see the municipal border on this map from 1926 (the black dashed line behind the houses along the canal; Heideburen is the red road along the canal). Dutch Wikipedia has an unsourced article with a list of mayors (w:nl:Lijst van burgemeesters van Schoterland), which gives the name of the mayor as Hans Willem de Blocq van Scheltinga. The newspaper article linked above only gives his name as mayor De Blocq van Scheltinga. Dutch "van" means "of" in English. Translating such prepositions in names of nobility isn't unheard of. The municipal hall or whatever you want to call it was in the next village, Oudeschoot. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

A 17th-century Daniël de Blocq of Scheltinga was grietman of Schoterland (w:nl:Lijst van grietmannen van Schoterland). Someone got confused, it seems.  --Lambiam 22:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@DuncanHill mentioned nl:Van Scheltinga family seem to list a 'Mr. Daniël de Blocq van Scheltinga (1835-1878), lid provinciale staten' before Jhr. mr. Hans Willem de Blocq van Scheltinga (1870-1933), gemeenteontvanger en wethouder van Rheden.

But there seem to be some confusion about name and post if we compare all three articles mentioned above. Of course in historical details such discrepancies can be routine too. Bookku (talk) 05:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Two sources that confirm that Hans Willem was (at some time) the mayor of Schoterland: [9], [10] The Rheden Hans Willem, born in 1870, was nine years old at the time the ice arch was erected, which was too young to be appointed to a mayorship, so this is a different individual. The Schoterland mayor was Hans Willem jr.; the Rheden wethouder has the right age to have been Hans Willem III. It is a safe assumption that the author who named the mayor "Daniël" did so by mistake. In 1879, the town Heerenveen did not exist as a single municipality but was divided over two municipalities, Aengwirden en Schoterland, so the mayor in front of whose house the arch was erected cannot have been mayor of Heerenveen. I have replaced the last part of the sentence by:

a large gate in front of the house of the mayor of Schoterland, de Blocq van Scheltinga, on the Heideburen street in Heerenveen.

 --Lambiam 11:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks to all of you for all the search and support. Bookku (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

USA Banking questions.

So I do know of someone that owed the credit card section of a bank, $27,000, before the bank finally disconnected. Which brings me to several theoretical questions.

1. If someone owes the credit card of Bank A $27,000, do the other banks know about it? I heard that they do not know directly, but they can do through shared databases. But the database doesn't tell the bank an exact amount, just a range amount.

2. What if you owe Bank A $27,000, but you already have over $40,000 in Bank B. What can Bank A do in regards to that?

3. What if you owe the credit-card side of Bank A $27,000, but you do have $27,000 in the commercial-banking side of Bank A. Can Bank A seize that amount? And if so, do they send you a letter notifying you of that, in which you can just withdraw that money out, or can they seize it from you without notifying you, or do they have to take you to court for that, in which you would just withdraw that money out?

4. What if you owe Bank A $27,000, but you have more than that in Bank B. But then, Bank A and Bank B got merged into the same bank? Heh. 66.99.15.162 (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC).

First, credit cards are rarely issued by specific banks… they are issued by specialized companies such as Visa, or Mastercard. You will continue to owe the credit card company for any debt on the card, even if you switch banks.

And yes, if you default on a significantly large debt, the credit card company can take legal action and place a lien on your assets, wherever those assets might be located. Blueboar (talk) 20:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

In the US there are several commercial consumer reporting agencies that keep track of people's so-called "credit scores", which are supposed to represents the creditworthiness of individuals; see Credit score § United States. Lenders can access your credit score. The situation under question 2 is, from a legal point of view, not different from the general situation that someone refuses to pay a debt while having valuable assets. What Bank A can do in the situation under question 3 depends on the contract you have with the bank (the rules you agreed to when opening the account), but I cannot imagine it includes transferring money without notification. If you should know, or have reason to expect, that a debtor may take you to court, then, I think, it is a crime to squirrel your assets away in order to avoid the anticipated seizure.  --Lambiam 21:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Jurisdiction matters, as does whether the debt is being serviced. 1. is hugely dependent on the jurisdiction. In some places, sharing personal data is a violation of the law; in others, it is just good practice. 2. needs some explanation as to why Bank B needs to know about the debt to Bank A. Imagine the customer is Elon Musk, and ask yourself why Bank B needs to know this information. 3. See 1. Above. In general, the two “sides” of a bank – personal and corporate – are actually two different bank accounts. If the corporate side is not linked to (e.g., collateral for) the corporate side, in many jurisdictions the personal side can only be accessed via a court-ordered bankruptcy proceeding. 4. There is no reason for a bank to merge two bank accounts simply because the corporate entities (bank owners) merged. More, the debt is not said to be in arrears or delinquent, so there would be no reason to notice that it is (or isn’t) related to an unrelated deposit. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 20:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

To Dor (HK). When you say jurisdiction matters, I guess you already stated that this is not a federal court issue and is state. So 1 state will allow Bank A to seize money from Bank B, and another state would not? Wonder if that's correlated with red vs. blue states. Could the same hold true for the credit card and savings coming from the same bank? Also, would the state law be for the state in which you opened the account, or the state the headquarters city is in?

To Blueboar, JP Morgan Chase and Capital 1 both having a commercial banking side, and a credit card side. I would imagine you owing the credit card side of the bank, had less to do with Visa/Mastercard. Visa/Mc makes money from swiping...

And to Lambiam and possibly others. Before my dad divorced his wife #6, she opened up a cc in their name and started using it behind his back, until cc company sent him a bill, hitting $27,000. So he hired a lawyer where the lawyer sent the cc company a picture of his proof of divorce so he's no longer eligible for the bills after their divorce date, which is 99% if not 100%. So now cc company only goes to her for the $27,000. She is Korean but from South America, where she went back to. This was in 2016. Earlier this year, I spoke with the attorney that sent the cc company the divorce, I asked him if the cc company knew she was back in the U.S., could she be arrested? Lawyer said no. Which means this is still a civil issue. So the idea of withdrawing all the money from your bank when the bank notifies you, is probably still not criminal. Also, there is no such thing as civil lawsuits with individuals. Why? Because when the process server rings your doorbell, you say "Sorry you got the wrong address, don't know anyone with that name that lives here." Or better yet you don't answer the doorbell, and certainly never sign anything. So, owing a cc company $27,000 is still not an arrestable offense.

Thanks for your responses guys. 66.99.15.162 (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC).

Now, regarding if you owe Bank A $27,000, does Bank B know about it? I will put this out, because someone will interpret this as asking for legal advice, but the story is over. Before my dad died, the wife #6 transferred $42,000 from his Bank C, to Bank D. So, why do I go to, Bank C or Bank D. Turns out to be a mix of both. And she put my dad's name in her Bank D so both their names are in the account, to make it look like he was transferring his own money, from his own bank to his other bank. So, that became legal. So here I am contacting Bank D about it. I didn't ask for a refund. I asked to mark her as a fraudster person. The bank responded that they sent my story to their fraud-team. Then I told the Bank D, that she owes the credit-card side of Bank B, $27,000 in 2016. You know what Bank D responded? Bank D responded "that has nothing to do with us." But I reiterated that obviously the credit card side of Bank A considers her a fraudster person, to help back up my story that she is a fraudster, and so, Bank D replied we sent this story to the fraud team again... So, Bank A and D are 5/3rd Bank and Byline Bank. If she owes 5/3rd Bank $27,000, do the other banks know about it? Does 5/3rd Bank not try to tell other banks about it? Well, hence comes privacy laws. The fact that she has a Byline Bank in 2024 makes me think the account opened long before 2016... And ChatGPT says Byline Bank will never e-mail or phone call 5/3rd Bank to confirm if she owes $27,000, that that's not how it works, that the only info they can get is through shared databases. 66.99.15.162 (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC).

I'm not looking for advice on how to get back the $42,000, but am looking into how banks can know stories of how other people owe other banks money. I'm also looking for any famous cases where Bank B froze your account because they found out you owe Bank A a lot of money. 66.99.15.162 (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC).

When I said jurisdiction matters, I was thinking of Cuba v. Sudan, or Hong Kong v. Canada; we have very little idea what country you (or your father) live(d) in. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

July 30

Digestion before the Fall

Ronald Knox's The Creed in Slow Motion, 1949 ed., is a collection of talks given during the Second World War. On page 68, he says in passing:

I even read a book the other day— not by a Catholic, but by a very intelligent man— which suggested that, before the Fall, man’s will directed his digestion. Think how nice it would be if you could digest your meals at will, like brushing your teeth.

He doesn't mention what book it was. Does anyone have any ideas? Marnanel (talk) 12:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe it would be difficult to be certain. I have to assume that this was between 1920 and 1930. At the end of the 1800s, Nietzsche was popular, which made way for many very similar philosophical works. Nietzshe had a common complaint throughout his work that mankind previously had control over the body, but over time had devolved into a purely reactionary vessel. He specifically mentions digestion in some of his works. I remember one passage that I studied in college in which he claimed that the flood of information fron a daily newspaper muddies the mind and trains people to quickly react, not think, as the information is digested and the body continues this. It quickly digests whatever is put into the mouth withough considering if it should be digested and what the nutrients might be used for. Because he brought this up in multiple books and the same thoughts were expressed by many others at the time, it would be difficult to identify exactly which book Knox read. You could narrow it down to only non-Catholics, but I doubt many people who published Nietzsche-like books were Catholic. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

July 31

Book publication dates

For a project I'm working on, I need to check the exact publication dates for a bunch of novels etc. Google is my friend, yet often it gives me wildly varying dates for the same book. A case in point: the publication date for Steve Toltz's A Fraction of the Whole is either:

• 12 Feb 2008, 11 Apr 2008, 1 May 2008, before Jun 2008, 23 Sep 2008, 1 Oct 2008, 6 Oct 2008, 14 May 2009, or possibly others, depending on which hit one chooses to believe. [11]

I understand that editions in different languages, and hardbacks vs. paperbacks can come out at different times. Also, books will be released in foreign countries at varying times, because different publishers will be involved. But in general, these do not seem to explain the variations in publication dates that I'm seeing. What would explain them? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google search for "A Fraction of the Whole" "first published" gives a large number of mentions of specifically February 12, 2008, apparently by Spiegel & Grau. Amazon states explicitly that this is the first edition.  --Lambiam 23:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As a book collector and researcher, I would not place much reliance on dates given on Amazon; they often refer to a 'first edition' in a particular country, and are often entered well before publication, which may then be delayed or advanced.

I note that Spiegel & Grau were/are a New York publisher, whereas the book's article gives its (presumably first edition) publisher as Hamish Hamilton, Australia, as one might expect for an Australian author's first novel. The online Science Fiction Encyclopedia (Toltz's work verges on the fantastic/near future) also gives the Australian edition as the first, though (as always) it records only the year, and by policy favours the author's 'home nation' when editions have appeared simultaneously or nearly so in more than one country. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 01:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hamish Hamilton was a British publisher; the imprint is since 1986 part of Penguin,^[12] now owned by Penguin Random House. Here on AbeBooks a hardcover edition is listed as "Published by Hamish Hamilton, London, 2008".  --Lambiam 09:25, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, all true, but:

(a) Publishing house and imprint ownership often has several tiers, complexly related, but the 'lowest tier' involved (whose name/colophon will definitively be on the Title Page) is conventionally recognised as 'the publisher' of a work, and;

(b) many large London-based publishers have 'local branches' in other Commonwealth countries; these often publish works by that country's authors which the London 'parent' publishes later, or not at all, or for someone with international appeal simultaneously, and they are recognised as 'publishers' in their own right.

As a book collector (and former editor at a London publisher which was then independent but is now a 'mere' imprint) I often wish these matters were more straightforward, but they're not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.169.77 (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Enough said. Thank you, all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Lafcadio Hearn story - One man in a boat

The Algernon Blackwood short story 'The Man who was Milligan' refers to a Lafcadio Hearn story "about a picture of a man in a boat. An observer, watching the picture, had seen the man move. The man actually began to row. Finally, the man rowed right out of the picture and into the place - a temple - where the observer stood." What is the Lafcadio Hearn story? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't match the "temple" part, but maybe "The Story of Kwashin Koji"—see the last paragraph of the story here. Deor (talk) 14:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh that must be it, especially with the disappearing never to be seen again. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Trouble finding reliable sources

I'm trying to add information to Beethoven's legacy section, however I'm having trouble finding reliable sources which give good information. When I use google I run into articles which aren't reliable and when I use google scholar all of the sources are locked behind a paywall. And, yes, I tried looking into the sources section of the wikipedia guides. What can I do? Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Wikieditor662 If you cannot find reliable sources, there is nothing to do, because Wikipedia articles should be solely based on reliable sources. You might have better luck if you mention this issue on the article talk page, which will be watched by editors more familiar with the subject. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure there are reliable sources on the influence of beethoven, I just don't know how to find them. But, sure, I'll ask on the article page... Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources don't have to be online (links are nice to have, but not essential). A Public Library of any size (if you can get to one) should have (or could obtain for you via Interlibrary loan) biographies of Beethoven which will likely discuss this topic at length. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see if I can do that. Also, are there any other ways to get online sources, as they're much easier to use? Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Have a look at WP:RX. ColinFine (talk) 18:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google Books search often affords no preview or one that is too limited, but you will not run into a paywall. Another searchable repository of books is eBooks and Texts at the Internet Archive. Just searching for Beethoven+legacy turns up possibly useful sources. A source that offers information of interest but is by itself not reliable can serve as a source of inspiration for keywords for a more precisely targeted search. See also Help:Find sources and WP:Advanced source searching.  --Lambiam 21:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikieditor662, I agree that archive.org (linked above) is an excellent resource and beats even the best reference library hands down. Opening a free account gives you access to copyright works.

Additionally the Wikipedia Library gives you access to a world of academic articles and books such as JSTOR, Oxford, Brill, Taylor & Francis, etc. etc. Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To get you started, I found The Value of Beethoven which you can access through the Wikipedia Library or you can open a free JSTOR account (click on "Alternate access options" on the right of the page). Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you guys so much for this. Unfortunately I cannot access the wikipedia as it requires 500+ edits and 6 months+ of editing. I will look into the JSTOR thing, although I haven't found anything useful from "The value of Beethoven" (except for one thing which I already have from somewhere else), and I do find some of the information on there to be questionable, especially when they said that Gluck and Haydn are part of the 6 greatest composers by far (or something like that). Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

August 2

Largest unnamed island?

largest unnamed island not created by river bifurcations 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

See No-Name Island. This sounds like an ideal question for a search engine. For example Google tells me that "The largest island in a lake is a nameless, approximately 4.0-hectare (10-acre) island at 66.687°N 70.479°W", and there are a lot more Google answers. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The next question would be whether any of these no-name islands have lakes within them... and whether any such lakes have islands within them. (And so on.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article Recursive islands and lakes. Abductive (reasoning) 05:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Google AI responded with the largest unnamed island being an island in a large lake on Baffin Island. Looking at sattelite views, it appears that the only reason an island there wouldn't have a name is because nobody is living there to give it a name. In my opinion, if there is an island near people, it will have a name because humans like to call things by a name, even if that name is "No-name island." 75.136.148.8 (talk) 12:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Your report reminds of the mountain called K2, which had no local name because no one local knew about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

August 4

Venezuelan parishes map?

Hi hi. Is there anywhere online where it is possible to find a blank locator map for parishes of Venezuela? I tried to google, but I couldn't encounter. I think the data is available in OpenStreetMaps, but I wasn't able to extract one. -- Soman (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)