Talk:1993 ethnic violence in Burundi/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about 1993 ethnic violence in Burundi. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

International Commission of Inquiry for Burundi presented to the United Nations Security Council in 2002

The report for the footnote number 2 has been made by the United States Institute of Peace and not the United Nations—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.61.254 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 22 February 2008

The document is on the website of an organisation http://www.usip.org but it says the source is:

United Nations Security Council, S/1996/682; received from Ambassador Thomas Ndikumana, Burundi Ambassador to the United States

And as a footnote on the first page it says " Note: This title is derived from information found at Part I:1:2 of the report. No title actually appears at the top of the report." So what makes you think it is not a UN report?

I did some further checking including a search under [UNICIB Security council] and came up with this URL: http://www.grandslacs.net/doc/0401.pdf ("Final report of the United Nations Commission of inquiry for Burundi") which seems to be the same report in PDF format on another site and the first page makes it clear that it us a UN report. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 21:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

split proposal

I propose splitting the current article into separate articles for the 1972 and 1993 events, with relevant links and content added to History of Burundi. The event articles would have enough background to introduce the topic. - Banyan Tree 22:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that there is no need to split the article it is nowhere near the size where that is necessary and the two events are related. If you wish to create two links to this article you can always create two new redirects which redirect to the appropriate section eg an article called Burundi genocide (1972) with a redirect to [[ Burundi genocide#May to July, 1972 ]] --PBS (talk) 07:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, the reason I'm proposing it is because I want to expand the 1972 section based on a few chapters in the book I'm reading, and would rather restructure it now rather than waiting until I add a bunch of content and then be expected to restructure that content once it receives the "too large" nod.

Also, if the article had all the "related" violence, it would include the 1988 and 1991 civil conflicts, not to mention the 1965 outbreak of violence, and at that point might as well be the "Independence" section of History of Burundi. Seems to me that the current structure under Burundi genocide would be either artificially constrained by ignoring those other intermediate conflicts or include those conflicts and be largely duplicative of the general article. - Banyan Tree 08:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You would have to add a lot to the article before a split was justified on content grounds alone. If someone searches on Burundi genocide I think it better that the two episodes that are called genocides appear in the same article. But my major concern is that while it is one article it is relatively easy to keep the article in a NPOV form. If it is split I suspect that the articles will become much more susceptible to bias editing. --PBS (talk) 10:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're seriously arguing "overwhelmed quality control processes" on an article on which the last fifty edits goes back all the way to September 2008, while History of Burundi goes to September 2007? I'm pretty sure that's an argument to merge the entire article into History of Burundi. - Banyan Tree 14:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

In any case, you have prevailed and I have removed the merge tag. - Banyan Tree 14:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Burundi genocide or Burundi Genocide?

Hiya to all. A question on the titling, as this article came up in a discussion about use of capitals in article naming on Talk:Denial of the Armenian Genocide#Requested move; specifically and NARROWLY PLEASE, about the capitalization of titles of events like these. Is Burindi genocide a proper noun, and if so, shouldn't it be Burundi Genocide? Here's my sense of it, copied from over there at the RfM, [where the proposal (not mine, I had questions that led to you) was to move the page from Denial of the Armenian Genocide to Armenian Genocide denial]: This was my first question, because I thought, "Well, this would conform better to the Manual of Style (which does not cover this specific point...YET):

"However, should it not be Armenian genocide denial, unless there is some legitimate reason why in this case genocide should be capitalized? Further, why should not (for examples) the articles Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, Srebrenica Genocide, Rwandan Genocide follow the same naming conventions as do Greek genocide, Dersim genocide, and Burundi genocide? I have the same question concerning titles containing the word massacre: Why Parsley Massacre but Rohingya massacre? Perhaps if such topics are considered events and as such are considered proper nouns...but I'd like to see all such titles conform across the board, to a coherently stated convention, whichever convention is supported by either clear policy or robust consensus. I haven't looked hard for it at all, but maybe someone else has: Is there any established WP policy, guideline, or village pump decision on precisely this?"

The response was:

"I'll explain my vision. In the titles it is a name of an event ("Greek Genocide"), a term and not word-combination (adjective + noun) to mark the belonging of the event. The same way the terms for Cuban Missile Crisis or Caribbean Crisis and not Caribbean crisis with Caribbean as an adjective and crisis as a noun. Or the Berlin Blockade, for another example."

to which I queried further:

"Is your vision... supported by a WP policy, and if so, please point me to that policy. I studied WP:Article titles and WP:Naming conventions#Capitalization to no avail. Where is this 'an event, or series of events, is a proper noun whose terms shall be capitalized' policy, if there is one? Declaring that something is an Event (not to opine in any way that this E/event isn't one) and thus is a proper noun that should be capitalized, could be controversial to some, and might encompass different scopes for different folks, so please explain also, if you can, why (as examples--there are a vast number of 'E/events' that might have this issue) the E/events currently titled (and capitalized like this-->) Greek genocide, Dersim genocide, Burundi genocide, and Rohingya massacre should not be capitalized as you propose for the move to Armenian Genocide denial, if there is a good reason to handle each differently. Staying arbitrarily within the narrow category of death and dying-themed events only, why Moors murders and Soham murders, but Parker-Hulme Murder? (the current examples suggest, somewhat irregularly, that single death is an Event, but multiple death is an event, unless it's a whole lot of death, in which case it's an Event??) What is the WP policy, if there is one, that sets these sorts of boundaries (or not) for E/events of all flavors?"

and got this answer:

"I do think that massacres or genocides you noted above should be capitallised. Those are events. A murder is an event, a pogrom is an event, a mass murder (massacre) is an event, a genocide is an event, but an article "Mass murders" is not an event, an article "The genocides of Europe" is not AN event or Sexual disorder is a collective word-combination and a collective article but Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder is a name of one disorder. the same way Greek, Assyrian or Armenian Genocides are separate events and not some variety of genocides or something. I don't even thing this was ever discussed. Just all the WP:RSs write it with a capital letter so no doubts."

Please share your thoughts on the idea of changing the name of this page to Burundi Genocide, a proper noun. I'm going to try to edit the Manual of Style to address this question, and before I do, I'd like to find out what community consensus is on the matter.

Sorry so long-winded. =) Duff (talk) 05:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I am against changing the name of this article. The name is a descriptive one. There have been two incidents which have been labelled as genocide and this article describes both of them. I think the article is better off with a descriptive name and not a proper name, which is not commonly used. -- PBS (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Suggested title : Burundi killings in 1950-2000

The title of the article and its content dont fit with what I know of uptodate specialists in these matters, See for instance Lemarchand 2008. I have not found any consensus among historians to label as a unique event what happened in Burundi within a period of more than 20 years. There is no consensus in the specialized academic circles to qualify as genocide what happened in Burundi in 1972 and and what happened in 1993. As a result it seems that Burundi killings would be more appropriate as a title. The UN international commission on inquiry on Burundi (1996 and not 2002) does not say that a genocide took place in 1972 but talks about `acts of genocide``and advocates to investigate more on 1993 killings with a perspective that includes what happened in 1972. Reneza (talk) 11:32, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

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Splitting proposal May 05 2019

I propose this article be split into two article, because the current article is literally two seperate events 20 years apart from each other only united by the fact they're both genocides in Burundi between Hutus and Tutsis and considering we have individual articles for individual massacres of individual genocides: Ntarama Genocide Memorial Centre, Murambi Genocide Memorial Centre I don't see how that's a strong enough reason not to split them :

1972 Genocide of Burundian Hutus

1993 Genocide of Burundian Tutsis

Please sign your name above using four tildes (~~~~), so we know who wrote what. Even if there's agreement for your split, each of the split articles deserve their own respective leads, and the lead you borrowed from this article and duplicated twice likely belongs on this article. El_C 07:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Personally I support a split, but not with those titles. There is no reason why Burundian genocide (1972) and Burundian genocide (1993) could not suffice instead, as per their common names. Your proposed title makes it sound like there were several Burundian genocides in each of the two years which need disambiguation.—Brigade Piron (talk) 12:18, 28 May 2019 (UTC)