Talk:Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib

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The article Ammarah ibn Walid was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 31 January 2010 with a consensus to merge the content into Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib. If you find that such action has not been taken promptly, please consider assisting in the merger instead of re-nominating the article for deletion. To discuss the merger, please use this talk page.

Do not remove this template after completing the merger. A bot will replace it with {{afd-merged-from}}.

Archives

Archive 1

Does not meet standard

All articles in Wikipedia should meet certain standards, among them is political and religious neutrality. This article does not meet that standard and should be corrected as soon as possible. Fjellgauk 20:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and therefore added the "worldwide" and "pov" tags. This article requires correction. Marokwitz (talk) 14:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and have changed the verbiage in the final section indicating that Muhammed was ordered by Allah to leave Mecca to instead say that Muhammed left Mecca.76.119.208.81 (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni sect(?) declare he was not a muslim

"There is not a shadow of a doubt that Abu Talib died a Muslim, for he was one of the strongest in his faith at the time. The Sunni sect refuse this with references to their Books like Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim."

The above requires citations. Also... when did the "sunni's" become a sect with around 85% of the muslim population who refer to sunni schools of thought? Certainly most of the muslims would agree with Abu Talib not accepting islam. But are there any modern secular studies suggesting that Abu Talib was a muslim according to non-sunni schools of thought, and that sunni schools of thought were unfounded? Faro0485 (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni's like Tahir-ul-Qadri consider Abu Talib to be Muslim, please check; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj_cmxZc9a4 Sorry the link is in urdu, i would try to find some english text too. --Mutawassam (talk) 11:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Going to hell is not logical equivalent to being a disbeliever

The source mentioned does not mention any thing regarding the nature of Abu Talib's belief. It is known that even some muslims will enter hell to atone for crimes which might not be forgiven at the day of judgement (as they are muslims they will not dwell in hell for eternity). The correct sunni viewpoint is as following : 1) He is a believer, 2) We do not know, and finally 3) He is a non-believer. The last view point is associated with wahabism. Can anyone please explain why a shrine existed over the grave of Abu Talib untill 1925 ? If he was considered an unbeliever, why would the religious authorities for the past centuries build and maintain such a building ? It is useless to argue about someone being a nonbeliever(from the time of Prophet Muhammed) unless there is a source from hadith collection or Quran which specifically states that this person is an unbeliever.

Again :

Going to hell != Disbeliever

Source : Sahih al-Bukhari; Last man from the people of Hell to enter paradise. (Nonbeliever, by the way, can not enter paradise - at least according to Sunni sources.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.206.129 (talk) 16:25, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge from Ammarah ibn Walid

The article Ammarah ibn Walid was put up for deletion with a result of Merge to Abu Talib ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. I tried to do that and couldn't find any obvious place in this article to include that material. Instead, I merged it to Second and third deputation with Abu Talib#Third deputation. If anyone wants to merge that and this, be my guest. But at a minimum, I think that this article should link to that one. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 23:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Brother, Abu Talib was a muslim and died as a muslim. What evidence do you have that he was not a muslim? May Allah Grant You Forgiveness — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.125.70.122 (talk) 20:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality tag

This article has been tagged since January 2010, when a merge was being discussed. It looks like the merge has been accomplished, so would there be any objections to removing the tag? Or are there still any problems remaining to be resolved? --El on ka 03:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 20:18, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Abu Talib ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib → Abu Talib ibn Abdul Muttalib – It's the more accurate transliteration of his name. Plus, his father's article namespace uses this spelling: Abdul Muttalib. Shiite (talk) 18:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support as nominator. Shiite (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Umayyads and Abbasids

I am a bit perplexed that the traditions casting aspersions on Abu Talib are attributed to the Abbasids. The Umayyads had at least as much to gain by dishonoring his memory, as he was the father of Ali, the grandfather of Hasan and Husayn, and the more distant ancestor of the later imams, their rivals for authority in the Moslem community--and the Umayyads are known to have maintained a fiction-writing workshop that created spurious traditions complete with chains of transmission. J S Ayer (talk) 00:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 20:12, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Abu Talib ibn Abdul-Muttalib → Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib – Per WP:MOSAR, the strict transliteration is "Abū Ṭālib ibn ‘Abd al-Muṭṭalib", so the standard transliteration is "Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib." Since diacritics are generally avoided in article names, the best choice would be "Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib". The current title, "Abu Talib ibn Abdul-Muttalib," is actually grammatically incorrect, since "Abdu l-Muttalib" is in the nominative case when here it should be in the genitive case, "Abdi l-Muttalib" (It's the same reason we say "Ali ibn Abi Talib," not "Ali ibn Abu Talib"). But in the standard transliteration, case endings are not preserved and the definite article is just translated as "al-". Therefore: "Abu Talib ibn Abd al-Muttalib." --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 04:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC) Axiom292 (talk) 03:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:MOSAR. Khestwol (talk) 17:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per MOSAR and common usage in reliable sources such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam. Constantine ✍ 18:53, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rambling opinion

An anonymous user edited the "Death" section of the article on 12 September 2016. The edit is rambling and incoherent, and should be reverted to the original. Eggman777 (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear people, including Shi'ites, do you wish that this information is kept?

I am referring to the part "Some Shi‘ites go so far as to insist that even the ancestors of Abu Talib were Muslim. Abu Talib was a descendant of Isma‘il ibn Ibrahim,[35] and Shi‘ites believe that the "divine transmigration of the spirit" is applied to ancestors as well as descendants.[36] However, according to the Qur’an, Ibrahim's father Azar was an Idolator and Disbeliever ..." Even if the word 'ab' does not always mean father, and the name of Abraham's biological father was not 'Āzar' but 'Ṫāraḥ', he was a polytheist, according to Joshua 24:2, so, putting the Quran and Bible together, Abraham's father was a Polytheist, thus it makes the viewpoint of Ali and Abu Talib's ancestors being Muslim Monotheists look suspicious, in the Islamic POV, so I am asking people, especially Shi'ites: do you want this piece of information to be kept? Leo1pard (talk) 11:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it is reliably sourced then it should be kept without question. However if the sources are questionable tag them with the better source needed tag. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New information

Would it be possible to add the following information somewhere?

The Will Of Abu Talib At The Time Of His Death At the time of his death Abu Talib said to his children:

"I recommend Muhammad to you, because he is the trusted one of Quraysh and the truthful one of Arabia and possesses all the virtues. He has brought a religion, which has been accepted by the hearts, but the tongues have chosen to deny it on account of fear of taunts. I can see that the weak and the helpless of Arabia have got up to support Muhammad and believe in him, and he has also risen to help them breaking the ranks of Quraysh. He has humiliated the chiefs of Quraysh and devastated their homes and has made the helpless strong and given them status...O my kinsmen! Become the friends and supporters of his faith (Islam). Whoever follows him becomes prosperous. If death had given me some more time, I would have warded off all the dangers that came to him".^[1] CryMeAnOcean (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References