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Controversy

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These two items[1][2] include information that warrants a new section. 72.78.186.52 (talk) 21:05, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kyuko: what is a "possible" involvment? "maybe yes - maybe not" is not a subject of the encyclopedia. Where are no facts about Ramanauskas' involment in Holocaust except the fake news created by Russian nationalist propaganda. "The Lithuanian Jewish Community has issued a statement in response to a controversy over a monument for a post-war partisan leader unveiled in Chicago. It says it does not question the monument, for there is no information implicating Adolfas Ramanauskas-Vanagas in the Holocaust." [3]
@Ke an: A statement by the Simon Wiesenthal Center ([4]), a major Jewish human rights organization, is not "Russian nationalist propaganda." The topic of Ramanauskas's involvement in the Holocaust was included in the 2010 Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law ([5]) and has been reported in major international newspapers ([6], [7], [8], [9], [10]). The controversy is worthy of inclusion in the article; please see Wikipedia:Advocacy and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Kyuko (talk) 20:35, 2 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I should add that the controversy is discussed in the article from a neutral point of view ("According to some sources", "These claims are subject to active debate in Lithuania", etc.). Kyuko (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kyuko:The problem is that Wiesenthal pages are not accessible in Google books. Lithuanian Jewish community doesn't have the facts about Vanagas participation in what he is being accused. Your links are just speculations. So there is no controversy. Wiesenthal centre is not an authority - if it has something to prove it should rely on facts. But it simply generates fake news saying that "his role as the leader of a gang of local vigilantes which persecuted the Jewish community of Druskininkiai during the initial weeks following the Nazi invasion of Lithuania in June 1941. In fact, Ramanauskas himself mentioned these activities in his own memoirs." Vanagas in his memoirs didn't mention what he "...persecuted the Jewish community of Druskininkiai". In the next sentences Wiesenthal centre contradicts to itself saying that "Though there is no proof that he himself directly murdered anyone, it is the Center’s position that his leadership during this period of persecution should automatically disqualify him from being declared a national hero." [11]. I think it is more than clear that it is just a wishfull thinking that Vanagas commited something not right. It contains more logical fallacies - "all leaders of that time cannot be national heroes", etc. -- Ke an (talk)
If Wiesenthal centre quotes Vanagas himself as the only "proof", so why not to quote Vanagas memoirs then? -- Ke an (talk)
"According to multiple Jewish rights organizations and the Russian government" would help clarify the breadth of sources making the claim, unless there are many unaffiliated historians out there who also hold this to be true. 199.116.174.10 (talk) 07:44, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"multiple" and repeating the same, adding more and more various epithets, playing propaganda games doens't prove anything.. -- Ke an (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:57, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kyuko: I just will add that, despite all the furious Russian propaganda, the ambassador of Israel, Amir Maimon had visited the daughter of Vanagas, Auksutė and expressed support for freedom fights of Lithuanians - https://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/lithuania/izraelis-pasiunte-zinia-vanagaitei-del-ramanausko-vanago.d?id=76655233 . Amir Maimon participated in the funeral of Vanagas. -- Ke an (talk)
@Ke an: The ambassador of Israel is neither a historian nor a witness to the Holocaust, and his actions are hardly proof for or against any claims against Vanagas. Again, the controversy surrounding Ramanauskas's involvement in the Holocaust is notable enough in itself to be included in the article, regardless of the claims' validity. Kyuko (talk) 15:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kyuko: Invalid claims have no place in encyclopedia, unless they are commented as false claims which is the exactly the case in the campaign against Vanagas. -- Ke an (talk)
  • To re-start discussion on the topic:
    Adolfas Ramanauskas's alleged role as Holocaust collaborator or perpetrator have been widely reported (as shown by a quick Google search). The erection of a monument to Ramanauskas in Chicago in 2019 was criticized by major Jewish organizations, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the World Jewish Congress, and the Jewish Agency (see, e.g., [12], [13], and [14]). From what evidence do you conclude that reports by numerous reputable international newspapers and community organizations are all merely "Russian propaganda"?
    The controversy is far from settled, but it is notable and certainly worthy of inclusion in the article. I propose including the (reworded) sentences "Ramanauskas has been accused of supporting the anti-Semitic Lithuanian Activist Front and commanding a paramilitary group that persecuted the Jewish community of Druskininkai in 1941" and "On May 4, 2019, a monument to Adolfas Ramanauskas was unveiled in Chicago, a decision which was criticised by some organisations, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the World Jewish Congress, and the Jewish Agency," as proposed by Steven Crossin (talk · contribs) at the DRN. Kyuko (talk) 07:50, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why I'm referring to it as a "Russian propaganda"? It is very easy - in a 1952 diary entry, Ramanauskas-Vanagas wrote that “Soviet occupants called us ‘German Nationalists’”. Russia “used this term in order to discredit us inside the country and abroad – hoping that perhaps some people will believe that we were fighting for Nazi affairs, at the same time betraying our homeland”. So in fact yes, those organisations essentially following and serve to Russian propaganda. The case of Ramanauskas - Vanagas is exactly the case where "reputable" organisations weakening their reputation under question by distributing ungrounded claims and highly biased, even insulting claims. If these "reputable" organisations can't ground their claims their reputation is put under the question. And another thing - I guess you are aware of making Argument from authority type of errors. You also contradict yourself by claiming that it is a "controversy", but pushing only one sided, poor or non-argumented point of view. So there is the controversy? If there is a controversy you should present the action of Israeli ambassador to the Baltic states who expressed his support to the daughter of Ramanauskas - Vanagas, statement by the Lithuanian Jewish community, Lithuanian Foreign Ministry, etc. The statements you are trying so hard to push to Wikipedia are false, biased, based on false grounds and rewording doesn't help here. Even more you are introducing more false claims, that Lithuanian Activist Front was the anti-Semitic.. -- Ke an (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've updated the sections with more information:

Ramanauskas has been accused of supporting the anti-Semitic Lithuanian Activist Front and commanding a paramilitary group that persecuted the Jewish community of Druskininkai in 1941.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The Lithuanian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and state-funded Genocide and Resistance Research Centre maintain that these allegations are "lies [...] spread first by the Soviet-era KGB secret police to discredit him."[7][8]

In response to allegations that Ramanauskas (along with Povilas Plechavičius, Kazys Škirpa, Antanas Baltūsis-Žvejys [lt], and Jonas Noreika) were involved in the implementation of the Holocaust, members of the Union of Nationalist Youth of Lithuania ed in Kaunas under the banner "We Know Our Nation's Heroes" in February 2016. On May 4, 2019, a monument to Adolfas Ramanauskas was unveiled in Chicago, a decision which was criticised by some organisations, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the World Jewish Congress, and the Jewish Agency."[1][6][9][10][11][12][13] The Lietuvos žydų bendruomenė [lt], however, issued a statement that "at the present time [they have] no reliable information implicating Lithuanian partisan leader Adolfas Ramanauskas in Holocaust crimes."[14]

Would this be satisfactory? Kyuko (talk) 08:07, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course not, because it is based on false facts and opinions. Its is just blackmailing Vanagas in another way. He had nothing to do with antisemitism -- Ke an (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:08, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ke an: Which of the above statements do you deem false, and on what basis? I am trying my best engage with you on this. Kyuko (talk) 08:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kyuko: Please go ahead and add this information to the article. A couple of dozen sources is sufficient to dismiss the "Russian propaganda" bullshit.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter: Done. Kyuko (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

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  1. ^ a b "Simon Wiesenthal Center Urges Lithuanian Community: "Don't Build Monument To Honor Nazi Collaborator"". Simon Wiesenthal Center. 2 May 2019. Retrieved 7 May 2019.
  2. ^ Zuroff, Efraim (23 August 2018). "Netanyahu Should Not Tolerate Holocaust Distortion in Lithuania". Retrieved 6 July 2019.
  3. ^ Balčiūnas, Evaldas (27 March 2014). "Footprints of Adolfas Ramanauskas-Vanagas in the Mass Murder of the Jews of Druskininkai". Defending History. Translated by Vasil, Geoff. Retrieved 7 May 2019.
  4. ^ Liphshiz, Cnaan (30 October 2017). "Lithuanian publisher recalls books by writer who triggered Holocaust debate". The Times of Israel.
  5. ^ Schmitt, Michael N.; Arimatsu, Louise; McCormack, T. (2010). Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law. Vol. 13. T.M.C. Asser Press. p. 582. ISBN 978-90-6704-811-8.
  6. ^ a b Cohen, Ben (8 May 2019). "Row Simmers Over Chicago Monument to Lithuanian National Hero Implicated in WW2 Crimes Against Jews". The Algemeiner. Retrieved 19 May 2019.
  7. ^ Kirby, Paul (8 May 2019). "Lithuania monument for 'Nazi collaborator' prompts diplomatic row". BBC News. Retrieved 6 July 2019.
  8. ^ "Lithuania's Foreign Minister meets with Director of International Jewish Affairs at American Jewish Committee". Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Lithuania. 8 May 2019. Retrieved 6 July 2019.
  9. ^ "WJC opposes Chicago monument honoring Lithuanian commander alleged to have collaborated with Nazis to murder Jews". World Jewish Congress. 4 June 2019. Retrieved 26 June 2019.
  10. ^ Alexander, Inigo (8 May 2019). "Lithuania criticised over monument to war 'hero' who led vigilante gang persecuting Jews". The Telegraph.
  11. ^ "Herzog: 'Moral obligation' to remove Chicago monument of Nazi collaborator". The Jerusalem Post. 2 June 2019.
  12. ^ Baynes, Chris (8 May 2019). "Monument for Lithuanian 'Nazi collaborator' in Chicago sparks international row". The Independent.
  13. ^ "Čikagoje atidengtas paminklas partizanų vadui Adolfui Ramanauskui-Vanagui". 15min.lt. Retrieved 4 May 2019.
  14. ^ "LJC Statement on Adolfas Ramanauskas". 8 May 2019. Retrieved 6 July 2019.

NPOV

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@Ke an:: In that particular edit, I restored the article to before the deletion of ~4000 bytes of content baselessly deemed "malicious" on 12 October 2019. You are most welcome to add back any well-cited information relevant to the article. No, I am not "involved in smearing campaigns". Kyuko (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Article name should include nickname (Adolfas Ramanauskas–Vanagas)

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He's most commonly known as "The Hawk" therefore I propose to rename the article accordingly. For some reason my attempt was reverted as "vandalism". Teach5 (talk) 23:44, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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