Talk:Agudath Israel Etz Ahayem/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Past President
Is it relevant to the synagogue itself that a past president was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor. This has nothing to do with the synagogue itself, but a certain member of the synagogue. If this one president is mentioned, the accomplishments of the other presidents must be mentioned as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.48 (talk) 03:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Significant achievements by senior members of the synagogue's administration (e.g. president, rabbi) are, of course, relevant. If other presidents have significant accomplishments, please bring them forward so that they can also be incorporated into the article. Jayjg (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- While such an induction is a significant achievement, such an achievement should be listed on an article about that particular person, not an institution in which they served. For example, if Michael Phelps were once president of a church youth group, would a wikipedia article on that church say that Michael Phelps went there. No. Why? Because the fact that Phelps made a significant achievement has no bearing on the church itself. Analogously, the fact that Mr. Aranov was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor has no bearing of the synagogue as an institution. To my understanding, this article is to describe the synagogue as a whole and its congregation as a whole, not to single out certain members because of their achievements. Hundreds of past and present members, board members, and presidents have made numerous achievements on the community, state, national, and international level. To list all achievements would detract from the purpose of the article, describing the synagogue. The history of the synagogue (such as Rabbis Atlas and Culpepper) are certainly relevant as they describe an important part of the synagogue's history. Lastly, I do realize that I do not "own" this article. But perhaps one should take into consideration the feelings of the members of the synagogue when authoring such an article and try to respect those feelings as much as possible. I realize that this information is documented, however even documented information can and will make people feel uncomfortable. Simply put, some of the board members and their wives asked me to remove the fact about Mr. Aranov. I would hate to tell them that such as task is impossible due to an issue of another user on Wikipedia using his authority to lock the article. Again, I welcome any response you might have.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.144 (talk) 04:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- We do not have any articles about the synagogue's past presidents or rabbis, so the relevant material about them naturally belongs here. Why would this factual and relevant material make people feel "uncomfortable"? Also, I keep asking for reliable sources which list similarly significant achievements by other past presidents, but you have not yet provided any. Please do so. Jayjg (talk) 04:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I know such articles exits and I know you keep asking for sources. Why have I not provided them, because I have no intention of forming such an article. I have neither the time nor the inclination. You keep saying that this information is relevant, but you cannot explain exactly why other than "of course it is relevant." If you were to read my second post on this discussion, you would see why I believe that it is completely irrelevant. Again, I ask you why you feel so strongly about this? Do you work for Mr. Aranov's [whose family i will remind you my family has known for many years] company? If not, then why haven't you done the research on the other past members? You have obviously done extensive research on the history, but only one fact about the past presidents. Mr. Aranov's name is not on the synagogue website, nor is a list of past presidents. Therefore, you must have gotten this information from someone who obviously wanted this information displayed on this article. No random person would know that Aaron Aranov was a past president. I invite you to respond to all of my points raised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.225 (talk) 17:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you think information about other synagogue presidents should be included in the article, then why do you refuse to provide it? As for why I "feel so strongly about this", I think the question applies better to you. Is there something about the fact that former synagogue president Aaron Aronov was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor that offends you? Jayjg (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- What offends me is your refusal to read my entire post and correctly answer my questions. You said "If you think information about other synagogue presidents should be included in the article, then why do you refuse to provide it?" Now I say, If you had read my post you would see I said ""Why have I not provided them {the information], because I have no intention of forming such an article. I have neither the time nor the inclination. You keep saying that this information is relevant, but you cannot explain exactly why other than "of course it is relevant." If you were to read my second post on this discussion, you would see why I believe that it is completely irrelevant."" Please try and understand that I do not want any information about specific presidents included on this article. Let me repeat that. I do not want any information about specific presidents included on this article. Once again, you have refused to answer my questions. Therefore, I will ask it again. Do you work for Mr. Aranov's [whose family i will remind you my family has known for many years] company? If not, then why haven't you done the research on the other past members? You have obviously done extensive research on the history, but only one fact about the past presidents. Mr. Aranov's name is not on the synagogue website, nor is a list of past presidents. Therefore, you must have gotten this information from someone who obviously wanted this information displayed on this article. No random person would know that Aaron Aranov was a past president. Let me stress this one more time. I do not believe that specific information on presidents' accomplishments has any bearing on this article. I do not want to form a different article either. Now, Jayig, please respond to my questions. A "dodging the bullet" reply only prolongs this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.41 (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- The best analogy would be with "notable alumni" sections in articles on high schools, colleges, etc. The consensus is that if the person is notable enough that they have an article about them in Wikipedia for other reasons, then they belong on such a list; if not, not. If no past members of the congregation fit the description, then nobody should be brought up unless as part of an inclusive table of such officeholders. (Such a table would not be unprecedented; but tables of past rabbis would be much more likely than ones of synagogue presidents.) --Orange Mike | Talk 15:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- My point remains the same, the purpose of this article is to describe the synagogue, not its members. Synagogues are meant to glorify G-d, not their members. In no publication, outside the newsletter to let the members know, will you find anything describing the members' accomplishments. The only reason it would even be in the newsletter is so that the members can congratulate the honoree of anything when they see him at temple. After that, it disappears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.41 (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- The best analogy would be with "notable alumni" sections in articles on high schools, colleges, etc. The consensus is that if the person is notable enough that they have an article about them in Wikipedia for other reasons, then they belong on such a list; if not, not. If no past members of the congregation fit the description, then nobody should be brought up unless as part of an inclusive table of such officeholders. (Such a table would not be unprecedented; but tables of past rabbis would be much more likely than ones of synagogue presidents.) --Orange Mike | Talk 15:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- What offends me is your refusal to read my entire post and correctly answer my questions. You said "If you think information about other synagogue presidents should be included in the article, then why do you refuse to provide it?" Now I say, If you had read my post you would see I said ""Why have I not provided them {the information], because I have no intention of forming such an article. I have neither the time nor the inclination. You keep saying that this information is relevant, but you cannot explain exactly why other than "of course it is relevant." If you were to read my second post on this discussion, you would see why I believe that it is completely irrelevant."" Please try and understand that I do not want any information about specific presidents included on this article. Let me repeat that. I do not want any information about specific presidents included on this article. Once again, you have refused to answer my questions. Therefore, I will ask it again. Do you work for Mr. Aranov's [whose family i will remind you my family has known for many years] company? If not, then why haven't you done the research on the other past members? You have obviously done extensive research on the history, but only one fact about the past presidents. Mr. Aranov's name is not on the synagogue website, nor is a list of past presidents. Therefore, you must have gotten this information from someone who obviously wanted this information displayed on this article. No random person would know that Aaron Aranov was a past president. Let me stress this one more time. I do not believe that specific information on presidents' accomplishments has any bearing on this article. I do not want to form a different article either. Now, Jayig, please respond to my questions. A "dodging the bullet" reply only prolongs this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.41 (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you think information about other synagogue presidents should be included in the article, then why do you refuse to provide it? As for why I "feel so strongly about this", I think the question applies better to you. Is there something about the fact that former synagogue president Aaron Aronov was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor that offends you? Jayjg (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I know such articles exits and I know you keep asking for sources. Why have I not provided them, because I have no intention of forming such an article. I have neither the time nor the inclination. You keep saying that this information is relevant, but you cannot explain exactly why other than "of course it is relevant." If you were to read my second post on this discussion, you would see why I believe that it is completely irrelevant. Again, I ask you why you feel so strongly about this? Do you work for Mr. Aranov's [whose family i will remind you my family has known for many years] company? If not, then why haven't you done the research on the other past members? You have obviously done extensive research on the history, but only one fact about the past presidents. Mr. Aranov's name is not on the synagogue website, nor is a list of past presidents. Therefore, you must have gotten this information from someone who obviously wanted this information displayed on this article. No random person would know that Aaron Aranov was a past president. I invite you to respond to all of my points raised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.225 (talk) 17:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- We do not have any articles about the synagogue's past presidents or rabbis, so the relevant material about them naturally belongs here. Why would this factual and relevant material make people feel "uncomfortable"? Also, I keep asking for reliable sources which list similarly significant achievements by other past presidents, but you have not yet provided any. Please do so. Jayjg (talk) 04:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- While such an induction is a significant achievement, such an achievement should be listed on an article about that particular person, not an institution in which they served. For example, if Michael Phelps were once president of a church youth group, would a wikipedia article on that church say that Michael Phelps went there. No. Why? Because the fact that Phelps made a significant achievement has no bearing on the church itself. Analogously, the fact that Mr. Aranov was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor has no bearing of the synagogue as an institution. To my understanding, this article is to describe the synagogue as a whole and its congregation as a whole, not to single out certain members because of their achievements. Hundreds of past and present members, board members, and presidents have made numerous achievements on the community, state, national, and international level. To list all achievements would detract from the purpose of the article, describing the synagogue. The history of the synagogue (such as Rabbis Atlas and Culpepper) are certainly relevant as they describe an important part of the synagogue's history. Lastly, I do realize that I do not "own" this article. But perhaps one should take into consideration the feelings of the members of the synagogue when authoring such an article and try to respect those feelings as much as possible. I realize that this information is documented, however even documented information can and will make people feel uncomfortable. Simply put, some of the board members and their wives asked me to remove the fact about Mr. Aranov. I would hate to tell them that such as task is impossible due to an issue of another user on Wikipedia using his authority to lock the article. Again, I welcome any response you might have.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.111.225.144 (talk) 04:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, why not start a new section titled Notable members, with the first entry being Mr. Aranov's. I will write the WP article myself (there is a bio on the Web about him, and I could possibly find more info as well). If there are other notable members, let me know who they are and I will write articles about them, too, provided anybody can point me to sources. Hoping to smooth things over, I am, sincerely yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- i stated this on the "help desk" page but it may be useful to repeat it here:
- it remains a mystery (to me, anyway) why anyone is offended by the statement about Mr Aranov being included; there's nothing offensive about it. i understand that the purpose of the synagogue is not to glorify individual members, but wikipedia has its own aims and policies, which are different from the aims and policies of other organizations and webpages. it's also worth bearing in mind that the subjects of wikipedia articles don't "own" the articles about them.
- if you want more editors' opinions on the disputed point, one way to seek more input is to start a "request for comment" - here are the instructions: WP:RFC.
- it would also be very good if you would "sign" your posts on talk pages, help desks, etc, by typing four tildes at the end, like this: ~~~~. that lets other people know who wrote what and when. it would also be great if you would consider creating an account - it's not required, but there are many advantages to it, outlined here: WP:Account. Sssoul (talk) 22:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I believe people are offended because the fact that his name is included might mislead any reader of this article that the synagogue supports these statements no matter what they know or think about Wikipedia. Once again, I understand that I do not own the article, nor do the subjects of the articles, nonetheless when articles about sensitive subjects such as a religious place of worship are created, I believe that certain exceptions must be allowed. While you may not find the fact offensive, others do. I still cannot understand how one came upon this information about Mr. Aranov unless one was specifically told to add it or look for it. His name is mentioned nowhere on the synagogue website. Therefore, one would have to do in-depth research to discover the fact that he was a president. If one did vast research, why was it done only on this one president. I still believe that this fact is completely irrelevant to the article and a list of notable past Rabbis would be much more relevant.DoctorKnockersMD (talk) 01:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- thanks for registering and for signing your comment. i'm trying to be helpful; if it sounds like i'm arguing with you, that's not my aim. i feel that getting better acquainted with more of wikipedia's policies would help you formulate a stronger argument - maybe starting with WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:NPOV and WP:AGF. since it's a wikipedia article we're discussing, the arguments for what it should/shouldn't include will be more persuasive to more people if they're based on wikipedia policies, not on personal views, the policies of other organizations & websites, etc. for example, Orangemike's argument (above) is a lot more pertinent/persuasive in the wikipedia environment than arguments based on the synagogue's policies. i hope you see what i mean.
- edit: on second thought, i've decided to move the rest of my suggestions to your own talk page.Sssoul (talk) 08:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- I believe people are offended because the fact that his name is included might mislead any reader of this article that the synagogue supports these statements no matter what they know or think about Wikipedia. Once again, I understand that I do not own the article, nor do the subjects of the articles, nonetheless when articles about sensitive subjects such as a religious place of worship are created, I believe that certain exceptions must be allowed. While you may not find the fact offensive, others do. I still cannot understand how one came upon this information about Mr. Aranov unless one was specifically told to add it or look for it. His name is mentioned nowhere on the synagogue website. Therefore, one would have to do in-depth research to discover the fact that he was a president. If one did vast research, why was it done only on this one president. I still believe that this fact is completely irrelevant to the article and a list of notable past Rabbis would be much more relevant.DoctorKnockersMD (talk) 01:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've now added considerable material to the article, including information about three other presidents and three other rabbis. The claim that people would find "offensive" mentioning the fact that Aaron Aronov, former president of Agudath Israel, was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor in 1988, is absurd. My contribution to this article has been to write essentially all of it: over 2,000 words, 15 different reference sources, 19 footnotes, over 19k, 107 wikilinks 6 categories. Your "contribution" has been to delete one cited fact from the article, 6 times over 3 months, complain incessantly about that sentence in various fora, explain that you have no intention of writing any Wikipedia articles or adding any information to this one, and make various claims and insinuations about me that range from idiotic to offensive. What, exactly, do you intend to actually contribute to Wikipedia? Jayjg (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Let me apologize to you Jayig, I had not intention of offending anyone. As for the comments, I said that people find it offensive because it had nothing to do with the synagogue itself. As for the comments I made, they were made in anger and I again apologize. However, your comment that I have made no contributions is incorrect. I actually started this article several years ago. While your contributions have been more than mine in that you have done more research, this article would most likely not exist without my having originally authored it. Thank you again for the help and I hope you see the errors on both our parts. As for my contributions to Wikipedia, I have much more important things to do than play on the computer all day long. DoctorKnockersMD (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've now added considerable material to the article, including information about three other presidents and three other rabbis. The claim that people would find "offensive" mentioning the fact that Aaron Aronov, former president of Agudath Israel, was inducted into the Alabama Academy of Honor in 1988, is absurd. My contribution to this article has been to write essentially all of it: over 2,000 words, 15 different reference sources, 19 footnotes, over 19k, 107 wikilinks 6 categories. Your "contribution" has been to delete one cited fact from the article, 6 times over 3 months, complain incessantly about that sentence in various fora, explain that you have no intention of writing any Wikipedia articles or adding any information to this one, and make various claims and insinuations about me that range from idiotic to offensive. What, exactly, do you intend to actually contribute to Wikipedia? Jayjg (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)