Talk:Andrew Gordon (British Army officer)

Source material

@Dormskirk, I hope you are keeping well? In the course of research I have been doing into James Gordon I have been sent two archive newspaper articles. As it turns out, there is far more information in one of them concerning his brother Andrew Gordon. These articles, I now realise, are the gold standard for both brothers and everything written elsewhere has been sourced from these newspapers. I am working on a revised article for James Gordon, but is there anyone interested enough to expand this article on Andrew? If there is, and they are emailable, I could email the two newspapers to them. The two newspaper articles are: Huntly Express Nov 30 1906 https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002658/19061130/138/0006 and, in particular, the Huntly Express Dec 7 1906 https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0002658/19061207/135/0007# Please will someone let me know if they wish me to take any action? Anne (talk) 00:10, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Good to hear from you. I am not a subscriber to the British Newspaper Archive so cannot access the articles and but I would have thought that someone who does have access might be interested in picking it up. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 08:25, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what happened to my previous post, but I am delighted to have found a willing recipient in Dthomsen8. Anne (talk) 23:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Image of Andrew Gordon's memorial to his mother

Pickersgill-Cunliffe, why is an image of a memorial to Andrew Gordon's mother, which, if you had taken the time to look at it, was specifically erected by General Andrew Gordon, not a reliable source? His name is at the bottom of the image here: [1].Anne (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Anne Ammundsen:, my logic is as follows:

1) findagrave is a user generated site that we should try to never use

2) You haven't added an image, as the edit summary states. You've added a web reference linking to findagrave in the middle of a sentence discussing Gordon's parents

3) The reference added doesn't specify anything about a photo or memorial, it's just a bare findagrave reference; it's at best an easter egg for a reader to find if they happen to click the link and then read the smallest line of print on the second image

I would also note that you gave the access date as 16 November 2019, which you should update unless you haven't actually looked at the website since then! Happy to discuss it further. Thanks, Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Pickersgill-Cunliffe, my IT skills only run to copy and paste, I'm afraid. I do not know how to improve the reference. I do feel that the image, at the bottom of the link I gave above, should be included since it was commissioned by Andrew Gordon. As it happens, it was also removed from his brother (James Gordon)'s page today, by Nikkimaria, and this saddens me because James died at the end of the American Revolution, and never got home to see their mother again. I feel this image belongs on both pages. It would be appreciated if you could deal with it in a way that it is not removed again? Anne (talk) 17:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Pickersgill-Cunliffe and Nikkimaria. In the absence of further discussion, I have reverted both your edits relating to the find a grave link, adding an inline citation. This link shows an image of the memorial James Gordon’s brother, Andrew, erected, who is named on their mother’s memorial. It is therefore relevant on both brothers’ articles. Anne (talk) 22:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem at all relevant to the brother's article. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

How can a mother and a brother be irrelevant? I have reverted your previous edit since the image proves dates and relationships which, in an era prior to documentation being easy to find, the image of the memorial serves a valuable purpose. Anne (talk) 23:53, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

It proves nothing related to the brother - it doesn't mention him at all. It seems undue even in this article but it's at least conceivably relevant here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:20, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

It proves who James Gordon's mother was - who his father was - who his brother was - his mother's age at death - his brother commissioned it. When writing the article, with such a common Scottish name, it became clear that the kind of proof one needs for wp is in very short supply. I am absolutely not prepared to lose one of the sources of information - a photograph of a memorial. I see these on plenty of wp articles. Anne (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

It absolutely does not prove who James Gordon's mother was, who his father was, or who his brother was, because it does not mention him - this conclusion requires inappropriate synthesis (even more so because of the common-name issue). What his brother did or did not commission without his involvement is not relevant to his article. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Combined with other sources it confirms relationships. Ellon is the key, which possibly you failed to notice? Anne (talk) 00:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Thus the synthesis. Primary sources should not be combined in that way. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

We have conflicting views which will never be resolved. I find the image provides proof of family relationships. Why is Wikipedia littered with images of memorials if they are so unacceptable? Anne (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

They are not intended to be used for that purpose. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

When an edit war is being conducted, is it not customary to put this to some sort of vote? We can continue this edit war if you prefer, but my thinking is that it should not be left up to you to remove my edit. Kindly instigate the next appropriate step, since you began this a few days ago on the James Gordon page. The man was dead 20 years before his mother, so how could his name be on the memorial which his brother commissioned? In the interim, I shall revert your edit on the James Gordon page. Anne (talk) 00:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Anne, at this point you have not yet satisfied the onus to achieve consensus for your proposed addition. You're welcome to pursue additional discussion if you like, but in the interim you should self-revert. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I have explained extensively, throughout this thread, my reasons for wanting James Gordon included in his brother's memorial to their mother. This is such a harmless request, and it strikes me that you are being exceptionally mean spirited. I request that this issue be put to the vote, but in the meantime I will not be self-reverting. That will happen if there is clear evidence that others agree with you. Anne (talk) 00:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Anne, the arguments you have put forward are incompatible with Wikipedia policy because they rely on synthesizing primary sources, as noted above. But even if that were not the case, it's up to you to achieve consensus for inclusion rather than I for exclusion, per WP:ONUS. Until that happens the material should not be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:32, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I have explained as much as I can already, and would simply request that others have their say. At the moment, there is only one Wikipedia editor with diametrically opposing views to my own. I do not think it fair that this matter is not put out there for others to comment on. Elizabeth Gordon lived throughout a war-torn era, and source material revolving round family relationships is hard to come by, since documents were hidden, lost or destroyed. Nothing can change that, so, to me, this is vital evidence of b.m.d information. Andrew Gordon wanted the mother of his brother and sisters to be commemorated, and this he achieved, yet you alone have denied her son, who predeceased her by 20 years, inclusion in that memorial.Anne (talk) 01:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

As it's now been a week with no additional comments and consensus still has not been reached for inclusion of the disputed material at the James Gordon article, I have removed it. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Dormskirk and Cordless Larry - I turn to you both for advice, and in particular Dormskirk, who assisted me in creating the James Gordon article. It was my understanding that an edit war must be taken to a talk page. This I did above. I also asked that other editors be approached to comment. However, Nikkimaria has taken "silence" from other editors to mean agreement with their POV. I adamantly disagree with that POV, as I have made clear above, but can I be overridden in this cavalier fashion? Should this now go to a "closer" to finalise? If so, would one of you action, as I do not know how. Anne (talk) 08:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Anne - Cordless Larry is an admin so should be able to give a definitive answer on this. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 08:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Consensus seems to be against inclusion of the material, but on the basis of quite limited participation. If you wanted to encourage wider participation as part of a discussion that could be formally closed, I'd recommend Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:49, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of the text inscribed on the memorial James Gordon’s brother erected to their mother adds nothing of substance to this article. While gravesite photos of individuals—specifically those of article subjects—are common on WP, such texts are not. And in this instance, the memorialized individual, Elizabeth, is not the subject of this article. Drdpw (talk) 20:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Wishing to resolve the issue of whether or not the James Gordon article should have a link included to a photograph of the memorial created in his mother's honour, commissioned by his brother, Andrew Gordon. I would suggest: "In 1792, Gordon's younger brother, Andrew, erected a memorial to their mother, which reads: "M^rs Elizabeth Glen widow of James Gordon, Esq^r of Ellon, died 7^th March MDCCXCII, aged 80 years. To the memory of a beloved parent this monument of filial piety is erected by Lieu^t Gen^l Andrew Gordon". James Gordon died in America at the end of the Revolution, predeceasing his mother by two decades. This request should have been placed here [2], but it would then have been separated from earlier comments.Anne (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Please could you correct my mistake Cordless Larry? It hasn't gone live.Anne (talk) 10:48, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Done. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

You might want to clarify what you mean by link in this context (a reference, an external link...?) and provide the link here. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

• Misplaced RfC, procedural close. If this RfC is about the James Gordon article, it should be held at Talk:James Gordon (British Army officer, died 1783), so that editors who have that talk page on watch will see it and have the opportunity to comment. It should not be held on a different article's talk page. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

  Seraphimblade, I have copied this entire thread, because it is all relevant to the conversation, over to the James Gordon talk page. Anne (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.