Talk:Armenians/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Hidden Armenians

Insofar as members of this community are able to deploy a back channel to communicate to the wider world, "Hey, I locally appear Turkish but but I'm telling the rest of the world I'm Armenian", without which we would not know about Hidden Armenians, the message from those disenfranchised people is that they are Armenian, and not some ethnic group related to Armenians. Armenians means everyone known to identify as Armenian regardless of country, so it's nobody's job to dissect them down arbitrary lines and claim that some don't qualify as highest level Armenians. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

PS. Hidden Armenians are accounted for in the infobox, and thereby their figure is already included in the grand total 2,961,514 figure. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I have left Hidden Armenians off as it is redundant to include it twice. However, Tat is not an official minority language recognized by the Government nor is it a prominent language spoken by the population today. It does not meet WP:N criteria for inclusion. Archives908 (talk) 20:15, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about the Tat side of the edit. Not sure what was going through my mind but the edit was clearly in two parts and it turns out the whole time my focus was on one component and yours was on the other. Glad it's cleared up. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:49, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2023

Change population of Armenians in Poland from 50.000 to 1.684. The data from the link provided (Narodowy Spis Powszechny 2011) directly provides us with this specific number, I don't know where the 50k came from. Kuziemek (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 13:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

According to the embassy of Armenia in Poland, the population of Armenians in Poland is between 40,000-80,000 [1], which is also confirmed on Armenians in Poland. I believe that figure of 1,684 is from only "self-identifying" Polish citizens from an old 2002 Polish census. I have restored accordingly. Archives908 (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Archives908: as it stands (following you revert), the cited source is misrepresented. Also, the embassy's estimate cannot override the 2011 census. M.Bitton (talk) 14:19, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I restored the sourced content. M.Bitton (talk) 14:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Your bold edit was reverted- per WP:BRD, you should have sought further discussion here prior to reinstating. This source from the office of the High Commissioner for Diaspora Affairs (Armenia) [2], confirms around 40,000 Armenians reside in Poland. Again, completely in line with the source from the embassy. This article from 2014 gives a high estimate of 92,000 [3]. I see no reason why these figures should be considered invalid. I have restored the article until a consensus is reached. Archives908 (talk) 16:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Archives908: Do you realize that you are deliberately misrepresenting a source? M.Bitton (talk) 16:10, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Care to explain rather than just accuse? Archives908 (talk) 16:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I already have and given that I agree with Kuziemek, I'd say that the onus to seek consensus is on you. M.Bitton (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You have not explained your position once, merely accused me of "misrepresenting a source". I have politely asked you for clarification, to which you have ignored my request. I have provided 3 reliable sources, all of which you have also ignored. Present your arguments as to why those sources should not be accepted. Stop your disruptive editing until this discussion concludes. Archives908 (talk) 16:17, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

You know as well as I do that the cited source supports the 1,684 number and therefore, we have no other choice but to correct it. That's how Wikipedia works. I also suggest you refrain from edit warring, otherwise, you'll leave me with no choice but to report you. M.Bitton (talk) 16:22, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Threats of reporting, how comical considering your the one violating WP:BRD. The citied source is outdated. The figure should be updated to one of the three more recent sources I have included in this thread. Do you have any opposition to that, if so, please explain why. Archives908 (talk) 16:26, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

When a source is clearly misrepresented, it needs to be promptly addressed. Whether the figure should be updated (using a more recent census if it exists) or other less reliable estimates should be added alongside it is another issue that I urge you to seek consensus for. M.Bitton (talk) 16:33, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Lom

Request to remove Lom people as related ethnic group to the Armenians. The Lom wikipage itself explains the following:

"Lom are an ethnic group originating from the Indian subcontinent." Hence, the ethnogenesis of the Lom people was established at a different place than the ethnogenesis of the Armenians. Problem now (talk) 12:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Place of origin isn't everything to determine relatedness. In this case, Lom people reside in and around Armenia, and are culturally linked to them, as their language Lomavren is a mixed language combining an Indo-Aryan language (a relative of Romani) with Armenian. Chaotic Enby (talk) 17:57, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Request: Change misleading 'Ethnic Cleansing' to Flight regarding Nagorno-Karabakh

The term ethnic cleansing is specific language which does not cover the voluntary flight of ethnic Armenians from NK following the 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh. A UN commission defined ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” This terminology came about in relation to the genocidal actions of the Yugoslav war. Given that the 2023 offensive by Azerbaijan forces resulted in rougly 400 non-civilian casualties, roughly equal between Artsakhi and Azeri troops, alongside the voluntary flight (after their safety was ensured, or claimed depending on your angle), I think that ethnically cleansed is charged language without basis. Ethnic cleansing has however been used to refer to the forcible expulsion of over 1 million Azeri and Kurdish civilians in the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. Note, that was 'purposeful policy...to remove by violent and terror inspiring means the civilian population.' This was voluntary. I propose that neutral, non POV language, would be 'the flight of Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh.' 95.145.32.31 (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

2 results for ethnic cleansing, 101 results for flight by news sites who reported on the 2023 offensive.

If this is again removed, despite proper conduct, it's just a blatant abuse of the edit function. 95.145.32.31 (talk) 12:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done several international organizations raised concerns about ethnic cleansing in the Nagorno Karabakh.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Such as? Ethnically cleansed is a charged statement with a basis under international law, as I referenced regarding Yugoslavia. Making that charged statement in the very first paragraph of a wikipedia article based on 'raised concerns' is not a proper one to make, and screams of bias. 95.145.32.31 (talk) 15:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

And I think this is an obvious one. Because if the same was said about Kurds in NK or Azeris in Yerevan, the same people denying this recommendation would quickly be the first to remove those edits. 95.145.32.31 (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)