Talk:Arms of dominion

Spain hasn't arms of Dominion

/* Examples of Arms of Dominion currently in use */ There isn't arms of Dominion in Spain since 1868, because the monarch has a different coat of arms than the Nation. Monarch and Nation mantain own versions, nowadays differences are external ornaments, tinctures (colors) of the lion (gules for monarch and purple for nation), the pomegranate (green for monach and natural for nation).--Heralder (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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  National Arms of Spain
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  Arms of Spanish Monarch
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  National Coat of Arms
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  Coat of Arms of Spanish Monarch

The shield in King Felipe VI's arms, unlike his father's, also has purple as the tincture for the lion rampant like in the national coat of arms. In fact, I do not see substantial differences in the heraldic description of the two shields as described below, respectively for the national arms [1] and the monarch's arms [2].

National Arms: El escudo de España es cuartelado y entado en punta. En el primer cuartel, de gules o rojo, un castillo de oro, almenado, aclarado de azur o azul y mazonado de sable o negro. En el segundo, de plata, un león rampante, de púrpura, linguado, uñado, armado de gules o rojo y coronado de oro. En el tercero, de oro, cuatro palos, de gules o rojo. En el cuarto, de gules o rojo, una cadena de oro, puesta en cruz, aspa y orla, cargada en el centro de una esmeralda de su color. Entado de plata, una granada al natural, rajada de gules o rojo, tallada y hojada de dos hojas, de sinople o verde[...] El Escudo de España, tal como se describe en el artículo anterior, lleva escusón de azur o azul, tres lises de oro, puestas dos y una, la bordura lisa, de gules o rojo, propio de la dinastía reinante.

The King's arms: [...] escudo cuartelado: 1.°, de gules, con un castillo de oro, almenado, mazonado de sable y aclarado de azur, que es de Castilla; 2.°, de plata, con un león rampante de púrpura coronado de oro, lampasado y armado de gules, que es de León; 3.°, de oro, con cuatro palos de gules, que es de Aragón; 4.º, de gules, con una cadena de oro puesta en orla, en cruz y en aspa, con un punto de sinople en abismo, que es de Navarra; entado en punta, de plata, con una granada al natural rajada de gules, sostenida, tallada y hojada de dos hojas de sinople, que es de Granada. Sobre el todo, un escusón de azur con tres flores de lis de oro, bordura de gules, que es de Borbón.

The description of the crest, which is the royal crown, is not substantially different either in my humble opinion.

National arms: Al timbre, corona real, cerrada, que es un círculo de oro, engastado de piedras preciosas, compuesto de ocho florones de hojas de acanto, visibles cinco, interpoladas de perlas y de cuyas hojas salen sendas diademas sumadas de perlas, que convergen en un mundo de azur o azul, con el semimeridiano y el ecuador de oro, sumado de cruz de oro. La corona, forrada de gules o rojo.

The King's arms: El escudo se timbra con un corona cerrada, que es un círculo de oro, engastado en piedras preciosas en sus colores, compuesto de ocho florones de hojas de acanto visibles cinco, interpolados de perlas en su color, de los que parten ocho diademas de perlas vistas cinco, que convergen en un orbe azul, con el semimeridiano y el ecuador de oro, sumado de cruz de oro, la corona forrada de rojo.

Now, having said that, there are different elements in the two achievements. Most notably,

1) The national coat of arms includes two supporters (crowned columns) and a motto ([...] Acompañado de dos columnas, de plata, con base y capitel, de oro, sobre ondas de azur o azul y plata, superada de corona imperial, la diestra, y de una corona real, la siniestra, ambas de oro, y rodeando las columnas, una cinta de gules o rojo, cargada de letras de oro, en la diestra «Plus» y en la siniestra «Ultra»).

2) The King's coat of arms on the other hand has no supporters or motto, and the shield is surrounded by the collar of the order of the Golden Fleece (El escudo [...] va rodeado del collar del Toisón de Oro), which is not present in the national coat of arms.

My question now to the heraldic experts is if those different elements are sufficient to qualify the national arms and the King's arms as different arms or not. The visual image of the shield in the national coat of arms does indeed look different from the King's shield mostly due to the color specification that was adopted by the Spanish government (the lion for example looks pink, rather than purple) and the design of the royal crown is notably different too, but couldn't that be attributed merely to different interpretations of the heraldic description? The banner of arms properly, based on the heraldic description, should be identical in my humble opinion.

The use of different external elements on the other hand also occurs mutatis mutandis in other countries, e.g. the British government uses the royal coat of arms without the helm, the floral compartment, the motto, and the crowned lion crest, and I think the supporters are also slightly different.

I would appreciate your learned opinion.179.208.240.220 (talk) 10:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Belgium

Based on the remark above by Heralder, I don't think Belgium now has arms of dominion as the King's arms are now indeed different from the national arms. King Philippe's shield includes for example, since 2019, an inescutcheon with the arms of the House of Wettin (Saxony), which does not appear in the national coat of arms.179.208.240.220 (talk) 02:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)