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Requested move 15 September 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida seems to be the preference of most. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 (T·C) 15:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump International Golf Club shooting → ? – The focus of the article is not the shooting (the Secret Service agent shooting at the suspect) but rather the foiled assassination attempt itself. I would suggest a rename to reflect this, such as 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 21:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to “2024 Trump International Golf Club incident”. No one was killed or injured, and there is no concrete or objective proof as to whether or not it was an attempted assassination. Even if was determined to be one, I would still support a move to here as no one was injured. I’d also support a merger with “Security incidents involving Donald Trump”. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 21:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I don't think going off of whether someone was injured or not in order to label an incident as an assassination attempt is a solid foundation. For example, no one was injured during the attempted assassinations of Gerald R. Ford in 1975 (the first one) or Cristina Fernández de Kirchner in 2022, yet they are both considered to be assassination attempts. I'd say wait until the FBI or Secret Service deems this to be an assassination attempt or not. PizzaKing13 (¡Hablame!) 🍕👑 22:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the FBI has already characterized the incident as an assassination attempt, as per the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/sep/15/donald-trump-shooting-florida-golf-course?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66e75a918f082dce7ae34412#block-66e75a918f082dce7ae34412
The FBI called the incident “an attempted assassination of the former president”. The FBI and other law enforcement officials said the suspect had a scope on his rifle, a GoPro camera with which he apparently intended to record footage and a backpack with ceramic tile in it. 2607:FEA8:BEDF:CD00:6148:E3AD:D0EA:3C30 (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ARGENTINA MENTIONED 181.31.2.121 (talk) 12:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait — we have two moving/merging discussion ongoing above. Let's wait until the investigation concludes or at least till we get a bit more information. Until then, "shooting" is an adequate description. Cremastra (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If any, (would prefer it being merged with security incidents article) it should be referred to as an incident. Calling it an assassination attempt would blow this out of proportion to what it really is and play into the hands of certain ideologues which desperately want Trump to be a martyr which he is not. Grifspdax (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Conversely, refusing to call it an assassination attempt also plays into the hands of ideologues who just as desperately do not want Trump to be portrayed as a martyr for self-evident political reasons circa 6 weeks before a presidential election. It's really very simple—the shooter was pointing a loaded AK-47 at Trump, with evident intent to kill, which constitutes an assassination attempt. Downgrading it to an "incident" suggests that somebody stubbed his toe. Selfgyrus (talk) 15:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Trump International Golf Club incident: In the first title, the year is unnecessary, but the title otherwise is suitable. As for the second, this incident should not be referred to as an assassination attempt in its title, as with the 2016 Donald Trump Las Vegas rally incident, another incident in which Trump was not injured. –Gluonz talk contribs 21:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NCE is clear that we should include the year. It's far too early to omit it per the guidance of WP:NOYEAR.. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, WP:BLPCRIME is another very important reason against a move to a title containing "attempted assassination". –Gluonz talk contribs 16:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Support - Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach is the most accurate way of describing this event. BrendonJH (talk) 22:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’d disagree. Trump’s 2016 Las Vegas rally incident illustrates this well. Someone tried to assassinate him at that rally, and yet it isn’t described as an “assassination” but an “incident”. Trump was not harmed or injured. Neither was anyone else. Therefore it should not called an “assassination attempt”, and instead an “incident”. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 22:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I do agree with you to some extent, I don't remember the Las Vegas attempt being described as an assassination attempt.
This current event is actively being described with such language.
Another notable difference I think is the fact that this seems to be premeditated event with the assassin hiding in the bushes waiting to ambush Trump, while the Las Vegas event was just a guy grabbing a guards gun.
What do you think? BrendonJH (talk) 22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the 2016 incident, the man behind it could not legally rent or buy a firearm, therefore his attempt to grab a guard’s gun. I’d say that while it may not have been premeditated to the point as illustrated today, it was premeditated to an extent. He had the intent to kill, yet did not have the means to (hence his attempt to grab the gun). Additionally, to your point of coverage of the incident, upon looking at past coverage, the press described it as a “plot to kill Trump” (the very definition of an assassination attempt). 1 2 3 4 --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 22:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Somone failing to grab a police officer's gun then being detained is not the same as secret service agents shoting at a suspect with a gun aimed at the same area as Trump. LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See my reply. Also, there is no evidence yet to support that the man had actually planned to assassinate Trump. As of right now, we just know that there was a man with a gun and a GoPro who was shot at by a Secret Service agent. We don’t even know if the man shot the gun at all. I would like to see people exercise WP:NOR. This is all circumstantial evidence at best. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 23:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident per WP:NCE. It's not clear that the alleged gunman even fired their weapon, and it sounds like the only shooting that occurred was a Secret Service agent shooting at the person carrying a rifle. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump. They may be investigating it now, but we all know it was an assassination attempt. SpringField23402 (talk) 22:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Second this. Others in this topic are purposely trying to manipulate the language to fit their personal sense of comfort around it. The FBI says it was......
[1]https://apnews.com/article/trump-shooting-gunshots-florida-f62f8378d3a8ce7b2e99d6a8fb40aba9 P3ckadizzy (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we all know it was an assassination attempt Cool, now what do our sources know? Because right now, they only know that someone with a rifle was on the golf club grounds, apparently playing golf, and was shot at by a Secret Service agent. Also, WP:NOR. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The general consensus of most sources Wikipedia deems reliable is that the FBI are investigating a potential assassination. See: NBC, BBC, CNN coverage. FBI have released a statement affirming the same. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A “potential” assassination, you say. We should wait for the evidence and objective proof to make a final determination. For now, we should label this event an “incident” and not an “assassination attempt”, per my above comments. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 22:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - This is the official term being used. BrendonJH (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was immediately obvious that the one in Pennsylvania was an assassination attempt too, but that wasn't moved until the FBI made it officially official and all. Benpiano800 (talk) 17:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 13:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to match similar attempt. At present the FBI are investigating as a potential assassination. As they’re publicly saying as such it should be reflected here. This can be updated at a future date if FBI drop assassination claim. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. We can give this at least a day for the fog to clear. Chasing the title after a swiftly-moving reality won't really serve us. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually to be honest, I agree with you on this one Nat. All we're doing here is arguing, let's wait till tomorrow where we have more info on this. SpringField23402 (talk) 22:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise. I feel the title is likely inaccurate or a non final version but it may be worth waiting 24 hours to see how the dust settles. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Breaking and rapidly changing news is rarely accurate, especially based on third hand accounts of unnamed sources. Q T C 22:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least change name to "Incident" instead of "Shooting": From reading the sources, none of them say any bullets were fired by the suspect; to my understanding, the incident was somebody aiming a rifle at Trump, who was stopped before he could fire. Unnamed anon (talk) 22:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trump International Golf Club incident seems a bit too ambiguous, but I agree "shooting" should not be in the title. Swinub★ 22:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Officials believe that this was an assassination attempt, but we currently don't know the suspect's motive for sure. I think we should wait to see if it gets confirmed or not to be an assassination attempt and then devise a title from there. Di (they-them) (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should the article name of the shooting 2 months ago be changed then? Griffin Wilkins (talk) 23:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion for that here. Scuba 23:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The assassin wrote a letter declaring: "This was an assassination attempt on Donald Trump but I failed you. I tried my best and gave it all the gumption I could muster. It is up to you now to finish the job; and I will offer $150,000 to whomever can complete the job.”. -- GreenC 15:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose on the current naming scheme being described. The current naming scheme being described, i.e. Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida, I don't feel as though it follows WP:PRECISION. Describing the events by location or state feels very vague, and the order of the attempts would be vague as well. Multiple news outlets have reported that the FBI have deemed this as an assassination attempt on Donald Trump, (AP News being my go-to for reliability and lack of bias), so I do Support the renaming to an assassination attempt-type scheme. As users like @Unnamed anon has mentioned above, I personally Support the name change to September 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump, as it is the most clear and precise name that could be chosen. Best, Zeke (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I see a lot of people !voting for names that don't include the year. A note for the closer (and those editors), WP:CONLEVEL is quite clear that a consensus here on this talk page cannot override a broader/global consensus at WP:NCE. WP:NOYEAR is very clear that there doesn't yet exist an exception for this article, and the only reason I haven't moved it already to a name with the year is because WP:RM states to not move an article to a different title during a requested move. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's preventing the closure of the RM to favour a rename of the article in general to include the year and month and then do a re-vote on the new page's talk if needed? Best, Zeke (talk) 05:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose describing the events by state, which is not ideal if we have better ways to disambiguate (for instance, months). Depending on how RS end up describing it, I could support either 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident or September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida because that makes most sense to me. SpringField23402 (talk) 01:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 08:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club Incident The suspect didn't shoot any bullets. FloridaMan21 15:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident as this article does not meet the qualifications for WP:NOYEAR. All sources I've seen have used "apparent assassination attempt" [2][3], so using "attempted assassination" would be misleading and WP:OR. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Support: I support Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida. This is related and similar too Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento and Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in San Francisco. LuxembourgLover (talk) 02:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida. The article itself already describes this as assassination attempt, so the title should reflect that. "Officials believe that Routh intended to shoot Trump." If Routh intended to shoot Trump, then he intended to assassinate him. This is literally a quote found in multiple places within the article.
MightyLebowski (talk) 03:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida or September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. This article drastically fails WP:COMMONNAME without listing it as an assassination attempt of some sort, as RS across the world are calling it. KiharaNoukan (talk) 15:03, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was not the second attempt. Security incidents involving Donald Trump lists this as at least the sixth attempt. - ZLEA T\C 21:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida or something along those lines. It was an attempted assassination, current title is overly vague. poketape (talk) 05:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Strongly Oppose Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach, because the date represents a better instrument of disambiguation in this case; The assassination attempts of Gerald Ford ( Attempted assasination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento and Attempted assasination of Gerald Ford in San Francisco) are not comparable to the 2024 assassination attempts of Donald Trump, as the former happened in the same month (September 1975), so the location must be used to disambiguate them, while the latter didn't happen in the same month (July and September 2024), so the date can and should be used to disambiguate them. Strongly Oppose Second attempted assasination of Donald Trump, because, in addition to the July 2024 assassination attempt, there were other assassination attempts directed at Trump ( As is verifiable in the Wikipedia article Security incidents involving Donald Trump). Yempo Yes (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump as per above DimensionalFusion (talk ▪ she/her) 17:26, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Donald Trump assassination plot in Florida" as no shots were fired and no casualties occurred, unlike the Butler assassination attempt, but still makes clear that there was an intent to assassinate Trump.
MountainDew20 (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No shots were fired by the suspect, I meant to say. MountainDew20 (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Alleged assassination attempt" then, since a letter is not a court conviction, as required by BLPCRIME: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations, arrests and charges do not amount to a conviction." FallingGravity 19:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ryan Wesley Routh

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The name of the person detained has been released as "Ryan Wesley Routh"; this already appears in List of people who survived assassination attempts. Shouldn't it also appear here? -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 22:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Need to source this, buddy. CNC33 (. . .talk) 22:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)
You could just copy the source used in the list article.
You could just use the press release from the authorities.
You could also use [1] or any other news broadcast on any news station going on right now in the U.S.
-- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
R.W.Routh was removed from the list article with this edit [5] -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Wolf Blitzer (15 September 2024). "6:00pm ET". CNN Newsroom. CNN.
At any rate, the question was answered by NatGertler below. I asked a question, I did not make a request to edit the article. -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Per WP:BLPCRIME, For individuals who are not public figures [...] editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime. At this point, no one has even been charged, much less convicted, and the individual has not been shown be a public figure. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, he (more than likely) has been written about before, as someone who led an organization trying to recruit foreign volunteers (specifically Afghans) to fight for Ukraine. In other words, Routh is allegedly a high-ranking mercenary, which arguably qualifies as a public figure. While this almost certainly IS the same person, we would need better sources explicitly identifying the two.2600:1014:B07A:4FE3:4D36:ECB:E857:D3AB (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it is the same person (and those are not rare first and last names), a single mention in a single article does not reach the level of being a public figure... nor even if we add in his Boy Scout awards. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He’s a public figure now by virtue of his name being announced by officials and published in reliable sources. We identify and name suspects all the time especially when english speaking sources publish their name. Kcmastrpc (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This page has a lot of information about Routh's background: https://www.themainewire.com/2024/09/what-we-know-about-ryan-wesley-routh-2nd-would-be-trump-assassin/ 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly the opposite of our guidelines and much of our habit. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stop lying.
Wikipedia names suspects who are pending litigation regularly, especially when their names are all over the news. You’ve been around long enough to know that. Kcmastrpc (talk) 00:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While WP:BLPCRIME states that for individuals that are considered WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURES, names should more than not be left out of the article. WP:PUBLICFIGURES defines a public figure as someone who has a "multitude of reliable published sources", which as @Kcmastrpc has pointed out, numerous sources have published his name as of writing this, which automatically deems him as a public figure, as well as his inclusion in past articles before, making him blatantly not shy of being in the public eye, making him a public figure. Best, Zeke (talk) 02:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Routh has presented himself as a "high ranking mercenary" but he appears to be delusional: the Ukainians did not take him seriously. ----Naaman Brown (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone created an article for him, Ryan Wesley Routh -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SKS vs AK-style rifle

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While preliminary sources seemed to call the weapon used an "AK-47-style rifle," a growing number of reports, like this one from The Washington Post, are speculating based on crime scene photos that the gun used was actually an SKS.

I'm no gun expert, but it definitely looks way more like an SKS than an AK to me. However, given there's a conflict between varying reliable sources, how should this be handled? Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 13:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your Washington Post link discusses the misunderstanding, I think that should be enough from a reliable source to make the edit. More official confirmation will certainly follow. 152.119.223.10 (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We'll have to wait for confirmation from investigators as to whether it was truly an AK-47 or an SKS. For now, I believe we should say something along the lines of "the assailant carried a gun bearing resemblance to an AK-47-style rifle." We need to be concise regarding the wording and ensure that WP:NOR is being exercised. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 22:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The FBI has published a photograph of the rifle: an SKS in an after-market hunting rifle stock with an after-market detachable magazine described as blocked to 10 rds capacity. Definately not a Kalashnikov 47. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 19:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mercenary

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Why is it written “Volunteer” so if a foreigner fights for a country that west doesn’t like he’s considered a “Mercenery” but in case of Ukraine it’s written as “Volunteer” not even trying to hide bias lol 183.82.164.16 (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're not wrong, but we use the language that reliable sources use. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s whatever the reliable sources say. I see no bias. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources I.e those that fit western narrative, makes sense 183.82.164.16 (talk) 22:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you don’t like how Wikipedia works, then why are you? 71.114.123.162 (talk) 00:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A mercenary fights for money; a volunteer fights for a cause. Jack Upland (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is ultimately irrelevant. Wikipedia goes off whatever language reliable sources are using. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 04:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Almost like the reliable sources use reliable phrasing. Scuba 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mercenaries have different contracts from regular soldiery, and different pay. Are foreigners becoming sailors impressed by the Royal Navy mercs? No, they are conscripts. If a foreigner joins up to get citizenship, is that a mercenary? If a resident non-citizen does it, is that a mercenary? Is a agent assigned by a foreign government to serve in the local military a merc? Wouldn't that mean all foreign spies in the military are mercenaries? wikt:en:mercenary is more restrictive than any old foreigner in service of military for which they are not citizens. -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lmao IP posters being Russian bots? shocking!
If you can't tell apart a foreign volunteer and a mercenary maybe you should read more on Wikipedia, instead of posting to talk pages. Scuba 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mercenary denotes (a) fighting for a paymaster (not necessarily for a cause) and (b) some sort of prior military training or combat service.
Ryan Routh (a) volunteered his service to Ukraine because he believes in their cause against Russia, and (b) he has NO sort of prior military training or combat service. And he's 58 y.o. and was treated by Ukraine as a delusional crank The most useless kind of volunteer, but not a mercenary. --Naaman Brown (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second Attempted assassination of Donald Trump

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Needs to be updated. The title needs to be changed to "Second Attempted assassination of Donald Trump" since the FBI and Secret Service has confirmed that former president Trump was the target of the gunman therefore making it an assassination attempt by definition.

Additionally, not calling it what it actually is goes against Wikipedia's policy about giving political opinions in replacement of facts.

The only people who are referring to this event as the "Trump International Golf Club shooting" are the Far Left.

Literally every media organization domestic or abroad, every federal agency, every state agency, Trump himself, his political opponents, and even foreign dignitaries have acknowledged it as an assassination attempt and not a simple shooting.


SOURCES: https://thehill.com/homenews/4881351-fbi-investigates-second-trump-assassination-attempt-five-things-to-know/ https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/donald-trump-safe-shots/index.html https://www.foxnews.com/us/fbi-investigation-trump-assassination-attempt-involves-full-force-department-wray-says https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk0Z34QWupM (FBI literally calling it assassination attempt the day it happened) https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/czd11ryq9rjo https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3278778/ryan-routh-suspect-apparent-trump-assassination-bid-charged-federal-gun-crimes https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-assassination-attempt-investigation-ryan-wesley-routh-florida/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.218.87.16 (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This, or something like it, has already been proposed. A discussion about it is chugging along further up this page. You are free to contribute to it. No need to start a duplicate thread here. -- Hoary (talk) 22:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that this is not the second attempt, but at least the sixth (see here for an explanation). Even if "second assassination attempt" is the common name of the incident, WP:COMMONNAME states that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." We should avoid numbering any of the assassination attempts, even if otherwise reliable sources try to do so, and instead find other ways to disambiguate them. - ZLEA T\C 23:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to it as the second attempt is calling it something else than what it actually is. It was not the second. Swinub★ 23:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Letter obtained written by Routh confirms this was an assassination attempt

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As of writing this, September 23rd, 2024, crucial evidence was obtained before Routh’s trial that definitively proves that Ryan Routh was intending to kill former President Donald Trump on September 15th, a letter that was dropped off at a witness’ home and was a message to the world states, among other things, that “this was an assassination on Donald Trump but I failed you. I tried my best and gave it all the gumption.[…]” This piece of evidence should be enough to consider updating this article to “Second Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump” Anthonysici27 (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already added, see update by SlaterRaptor1976. Uwappa (talk) 17:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not the second attempt. - ZLEA T\C 18:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change to Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump

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The FBI and the shooter in a manifesto has confirmed that this was a an assassination attempt on Donald Trump 96.60.168.239 (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is already being discussed above — Czello (music) 08:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BLPCRIME

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Is the current title of this page a WP:BLPCRIME violation? The accused individual seems not to have been convicted of an attempted assassination. –Gluonz talk contribs 19:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a BLPCRIME violation. The accused individual left a note directly saying it was an attempted assassination. Also, reportedly, feds are charging Routh for an assassination attempt. Unnamed anon (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Unnamed anon: Is an exception listed in BLPCRIME for a suspect who left a note stating that they would commit the crime of which they later would be accused? –Gluonz talk contribs 20:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a charge for an attempted assassination is brought against the accused individual in the future, then the title would cease being a BLPCRIME violation. But we would have to wait for a court to formally issue that charge. –Gluonz talk contribs 20:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you’re convicting someone based on your perception of the evidence. Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say, not on our individual perceptions or political beliefs. This article is not notable enough for a separate Wikipedia article. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 23:41, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Routh was charged with attempted assassination of a presidential candidate earlier today. [6] David O. Johnson (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, that does not mean that he is notable enough for an entire separate Wikipedia article. This is pure recentism and an attempt to use Wikipedia to further a particular political narrative during an election period. This could easily have just been one or two sentences in the article on security incidents surrounding trump. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 05:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're misinterpreting WP:BLPCRIME. The title does not say that Routh committed a crime, but rather that there was an attempted assassination against Trump in Florida. The body of the article describes what officials believe happened. In describing the criminal act itself, the word "man" is used. Other factual information, such as the note written by Routh, the SUV owned by him etc. are also included.
Nothing in the article title or body violates WP:BLPCRIME. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article implicates a particular person in this crime, however. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 05:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it doesn't "implicate" anyone. The article neither states nor implies that the accused person is legally guilty of anything. That is up to the courts to determine. There is no BLP violation here. Cullen328 (talk) 05:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is currently titled "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida", and the "suspect" (the BLP) is listed. I'm not really seeing how this isn't a BLPCRIME violation, and a rather serious one at that. Even our secondary sources in the RM above were hedging their language with "apparent", but BLPCRIME goes further, stating that a mere accusation isn't enough as BLPCRIME says there is a presumption of innocence. The previous title that classified it as a security incident was far more appropriate and in-line with the sources. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is about Donald Trump, not Routh. Routh is a named suspect and the title isn't Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida by Ryan Routh for that reason. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The existence of this article is implicating a particular person in this crime. This article should not exist. Wikipedia is not a tabloid. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 17:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They're not implicated, since they haven't been convicted. David O. Johnson (talk) 18:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, people are misinterpreting WP:BLPCRIME:
For individuals who are not public figures—that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures—editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime.
Routh is a public figure, so WP:BLPCRIME does not apply in the way that you are describing.
We can describe Routh based on what WP:RS say, including the notion that he's an alleged assassin.

The previous title that classified it as a security incident was far more appropriate and in-line with the sources.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Every WP:RS source now describes this as an assassination attempt.
A few days ago, the FBI formally charged Routh with attempted assassination of a major presidential candidate. MightyLebowski (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a pretty obvious BLPCRIME violation. Article titles shouldn't implicate living people (including public figures) in crimes they have only been charged with (see WP:KILLINGS for comparison). That's why I thought we should go with something like "alleged assassination attempt". FallingGravity 09:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why it matters, the article is about the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, it's not an article about Routh. Routh is a named suspect in the matter, which has nothing to do with the title. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Routh charged with attempted assassination

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As of writing this, September 25th, 2024, Ryan Routh was formally charged for attempting to assassinate Trump. BLPCRIME can now be removed and Routh’s charges can be updated in the Wiki Anthonysici27 (talk) 06:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Charged means accused, not convicted. WP:BLPCRIME. shouldn't be removed CViB (talk) 08:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Charged does not mean that he was found guilty. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Routh son arrest

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This was present in the article and then removed as tangential. The investigation into his son was conducted as a result of this assassination attempt and should be included in the aftermath section. I find this similar to Criminal charges brought in the Mueller special counsel investigation, which lists many people, many of whom are non-notable except for their crimes (which not all were convicted for), and not all were found guilty/accused of colluding with Russia. They're relevant to list there just as his son should be listed here as investigations resulting from the initial targeted investigation led to their charges. poketape (talk) 20:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My concern would be BLPNAME: The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject.[e] Does the arrest of his son give a reader a complete understanding of the attempted assassination? Note that the father has only been charged with the attempt and not convicted while his son is charged with actions outside of West Palm Beach.
Regarding the Criminal charges brought in the Mueller special counsel investigation article, OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does point to the essay Wikipedia:When to use or avoid "other stuff exists" arguments which notes at SSEFAR that checking related articles is a good idea in this case. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many articles have been published regarding the arrest so I don't think BLPNAME applies as he's no longer low-profile. He also participated in an interview after his father's arrest, which further negates the low-profile argument. poketape (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it out, WP:BLP1E and WP:BLPCRIME. Kcmastrpc (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think BLP1E applies, just BLPCRIME (which is what I'm debating if it applies or not), as I'm not saying to make an article about his son (which would be where BLP1E applies), but whether or not it should be mentioned here as a result of the investigation into this article's topic. poketape (talk) 00:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2024

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2600:6C46:4400:11E2:1F8B:11B8:BC72:8844 (talk) 03:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. What change are you asking for? RudolfRed (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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