Talk:Bahnus

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I've created this Wiki primarily from English news articles, it would be awesome if information directly from Korean websites(such as Daum or Cyworld could be added.Intouchwithbertj (talk) 11:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Information such as Lee Jae Young's date of birth, place of birth and other information like it is very welcome.Intouchwithbertj (talk) 11:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources required

This article is having the same problem as Lee Hyori. It is a BLP article that contains accusations of fraud, plagiarism and copyright infringement, with few if any reliable sources to back up the claims.

I am going to stub this down to the non-controversial elements. Any material putting the claims back in must be to reliable news sources (not blogs; not online forums), either in English or with a translation of the statements provided. TJRC (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Its factual, he plagiarized the songs. Its even been confirmed by MnetMedia, the company he sold the plagiarized songs to. Further 'statements' are good sources, the blogs(of the original artists) were posted as reference to clearify certain parts. I at times used the Korean articles as a reference because there is more Korean information than translated information + its allowed to use Korean articles as reference, nowhere does it say the reference has to be English. I will await the result of the lawsuit which will make any 'accusations' facts also. What do you consider 'reliable' sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intouchwithbertj (talk • contribs) 01:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:RS describes the criteria for reliable sources in detail. TJRC (talk) 01:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/06/117_68217.html Someone told me here that Koreatimes is verifiable enough. Intouchwithbertj (talk) 10:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Im going to undo your removal and re-reference what I can re-reference with 'reliable' sources.

Two old links remain, one to Allkpop and the other to OMGkpop. Both are based of official statements and are needed because the 'other' websites such as Korea Herald only started reporting the issue in its later phase. Further there Bahnus has pleaded guilty. There are translations of korean articles referenced to Hyoleesubs because this website translates nearly everything thats related to Lee Hyori, thus also some relevant translations when it comes to Bahnus. I have emailed several of the authors of the 'english' news sites such as Korean Times, because their article's show something odd. They continuesly speak of Bahnus Vacuum being credited and being sued. When it comes to the credits they are wrong, I have the H.logic album and only Bahnus is credited. When it comes to the lawsuit there has only been news about Bahnus, Bahnus Vacuum was never mentioned in relation to H.logic. I wish I could use more Allkpop sources because so far they had the most complete coverage on this issue and had correct information(they even mentioned the original source). Websites such as Allkpop should not be underrated, they provide really good news that is distinctively different from their gossip articles. Intouchwithbertj (talk) 00:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

This is much improved; some of these are reliable sources. Nice work. The blogs and forums are still not reliable sources and still have to go, though. If you can read Korean and can personally confirm that the translations are accurate, cite to the actual news reports, with a translation of what they're saying. TJRC (talk) 18:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, I will write about the troubles with this article. Its horrible to search Mnet Media's website, for anything. I, as one of the main contributors on one of the most complete forum threads on this subject, have visited the Mnet Media website various times but its not suitable for people who use GoogleTranslations to find what they're looking for, press articles cannot be linked as the URL remains the same.

I have a question, because I've been involved researching the plagiarism as a netizen, I notice mistakes or odd things in articles immediately. There are English articles that state weird things that do not make sense when compared to what is said earlier or what evidence I have to back it up, it makes be feel weird using that information from the English articles. For example there are two articles by two different websites that claim that Bahnus Vacuum(the group) is credited for the plagiarized tracks, but thats incorrect, I myself own one of the copies of H.logic and it only states 'Bahnus'. Also they say Bahnus was arrested but some other article later claims that 'Bahnus Vacuum' is sued, but there is no further info about that or anything that backs that up. Is it okay that I refrain from using the information that I doubt is correct? of course I can always explain why.(added notes to the 3 articles at the section 'sources' on this talks page).

Further I noticed that you refer to the sources which you removed as blogs and forums. Hyoleesubs is the only 'blog' I referenced, but only as English translation of hyori's statement. I added the Daum fan cafe as a Korean reference, because the original Korean statement is on there, but when one opens the news articles on the fan cafe the URL doesnt appear to change, the Daum page was given as reference for the original statement which hyoleesubs translated to English.

You refer to other removed parts as, references to forums, I notice you removed sources linking to OMGKpop and Allkpop. Both of them are news sites that provide daily news. I understand that they also provide 'gossip' but, their 'news' is of immense value when it comes to creating articles about Korean pop related subjects. Not because their news is special, its just that papers like KoreaTimes do not report on things until the very end, as where Allkpop and OMGkpop reported this issue from begin until where we are at now. This has another plus, Allkpop and OMGkpop are familiar with the subjects so they know what the article's are about, other websites who in the end start reporting things have no clue what they're talking about(noticing from mentioning Bahnus Vacuum as credited) Why are Allkpop and Omgkpop seen as only gossip? Intouchwithbertj (talk) 01:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

With certain exceptions that do not apply here (e.g. a blog associated with a reputable news service and subject to editorial control) you can't use blogs, wikis, internet forums or other self-published materials as reliable sources. The reasons why are explained at WP:RS and WP:SPS and WP:SOURCES. They are particularly bad in biographies of living people (WP:BLP) and where they are being used to support accusations of behavior that is either criminal, gives rise to civil liability, inherently dishonest or otherwise undermining of character, or professional competence. The accusations of plagiarism and copyright infringement is hitting all of these. I don't know how to make this any plainer. You can't use blogs, internet forums and wikis as sources for this. If you can't find actual reliable sources to support such a claim, leave the claim out. TJRC (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Why is Allkpop different from other news websites in your opinion? Please do not cite the WP:RS yet again, I know what it says, but I need your personal opinion on where Allkpop does not meet the standards mentioned in the WP:RS. Allkpop is not a blog, its not a wiki nor is it a forum. Its a news breaking website specialized in Korean Pop and everything that is related to it. Intouchwithbertj (talk) 12:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources

I have searched for English news articles on Bahnus and this is what I found excluding Allkpop OMGKpop and other 'gossip' news.(Earliest - Latest)

20 June, 2010 The Korea Times - Lee Hyori admits plagiarism
Note: Mentions that Bahnus Vacuum is credited for 7 tracks on H.logic, which is not correct.

21 June, 2010 The Chosun Ilbo - Lee Hyori admits plagiarism

21 June, 2010 The Korea Herald - Criticizing article at MnetMedia, after Lee Hyori acknowledging the plagiarism
Note: Mentions that the group Bahnus Vacuum is subject to a Lawsuit, which is unlikely to be correct.

23 June, 2010 Yonhap News Agency - Lee Hyori's confession and Debate

23 June, 2010 The Chosun Ilbo - Column on the plagiarism(in Kpop culture)

24 June, 2010 JoongAng Daily - Article about the plagiarism, including parts from an interview and part about Lee Hyun
Note: Mentions that Bahnus Vacuum is credited for 6 tracks on H.logic, which is not correct.

24 June, 2010 The Korea Times - Extended article on the plagiarism with partial interview and part about 'singers responsibility'

1 July, 2010 Yonhap News Agency - complaint filed against Bahnus

8 July, 2010 The Korea Times - Hyori suspends tv appearences and Bahnus says he guilty

Lee Hyun

There is this article about Lee Hyun's track 'pride' being plagiarized by Bahnus. However there are two Lee Hyun's, one is a singer in the group 8eight and the one who sang 'pride' who is a current member of the group After Rain and an old/ex member of 5tion. Do I have to reference this or is it okay to add this information without references? This information should be added to prevent confusion, also the information can better be added here as write a separate Wiki about Lee Hyun, because there is very very little information about him. Intouchwithbertj (talk) 12:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Bahnus Vacuum never accused.

In the plagiarism issue surrounding the 7 songs on Lee Hyori's album "H.Logic", was the group of composers 'Bahnus Vacuum' falsely accused of being the plagiarizers? I might be a little too involved with the this case, but this is something that isnt right.

Okay, its as follows. Bahnus(Lee Jae Young) who is officially accused of plagiarizing the tracks on H.Logic, is also as member of the group "Bahnus Vacuum", in fact he is the leader of this group. Bahnus Vacuum was a group consisting out of 7 members, who were all composers.

Now as I am obsessed in finding information about anything related to H.Logic's plagiarism, I would like to say that I know what I am talking about. When on a forum it was revealed that the composer - of all the 6 songs that were at that time accused of being plagiarized - was named "Bahnus" many people started searching for this person on the internet. The results at that time were quite disappointing as we would get a lot of misleading hits from a group named "Bahnus Vacuum". As the official credits on the album only state the name "Bahnus", I concluded that Bahnus Vacuum was a different group and did not have anything to do with the plagiarism.

Much later when the singer Lee Hyori admitted that the 7 songs were plagiarized, many online newspapers took the opportunity to write an article about this issue. Soon after the first article's were released, I noticed that they reported everything exactly as they had been found out on the forums, only they accused "Bahnus Vacuum" instead of "Bahnus". (see 'noted' articles mentioned here)

This is what I do not understand, my guess was that the authors of the online articles made a mistake. The probably thought that Bahnus Vacuum and Bahnus were the same person and thought that this should be corrected. After I read several articles, I sent the newspapers and the authors or the articles emails, asking for a rectification of the articles, or a clarification for the use of the name "Bahnus Vacuum", which had no results.

Recently, when Bahnus got officially accused of plagiarism and such, the same newspapers wrote about it, this time not mentioning the name "Bahnus Vacuum" but the name "Bahnus" even adding "Lee Jae-Yong" his real name, but there was one newspaper who stated "Bahnus". Now I'm guessing they did better research this time and concluded that Bahnus was the real culprit here. Now I ask what you think is true on this matter, was Bahnus Vacuum falsely accused? Enlighten me!

If you can cite sources, please do! Intouchwithbertj (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)