Talk:Battle of Fancheng

A Broken Alliance

(From the Novel's P.O.V.) As always, Cao Ren, who I have much respect for, stood boldly against the border lines of Shu and Wu; however, after Cao Cao wishes to destroy Liu Bei, Sima Yi presents to him a plan of getting Shu to attack Wu.

"Sun Quan's sister is wife to Liu Bei, but Sun Quan has found an occasion to steal away the bride. Liu Bei is in possession of Jingzhou, and he and Sun Quan are bitter enemies. Therefore send some able speaker with a letter to Wu to presuade the Marquis to send an army to recover Jingzhou. That will draw hither all the armies of Shu, when you can send your army to Hanzhong. Liu Bei will be helpless, and his strength will be wasted." Quote from Sima Yi.

In turn of this event, it was Cao Cao who used Sun Quan's anger over Jing to break the alliance of Wu and Shu; however, Sun Quan and his advisors did take note to the fact of Sima Yi's plan even though it ended with them aiding Wei. (But of course, this is from the novel. As far as real life goes, Sun Quan may have mentioned to Cao Ren that he should attack Guan Yu.)

Lu Meng's Plan for Jing

After arriving from Lukou by boat, Lu Meng brings forth the plan to capture Jing with assistance from a young scholar of Wu. (From the Novel) Upon the day Lu Meng feigned illness, Lu Xun came forth as the young, inexperienced commander who would watch over the province that Lu Meng held. After receiving word of his so-called illness, Sun Quan promotes Lu Xun to a Commanding General.

The Capture of Jing by Lu Meng of Wu

After Guan Yu receives word of Lu Xun's promotion, he felt no trouble would fall on him from the South Land. As Guan Yu made his charge for Fan Castle, Lu Meng with Sun Jiao led Wu soldiers towards the Jing Province dressed as sailors and merchants. After making short work of Jing's defenses, Wu now held complete control over the province without a hint of news reaching Guan Yu. Upon his arrival in Jing, Lu Meng showers his captives with gifts and rewards. With order now restored by Wu, Sun Quan had finally regained Jing with Gongan and Nanjun well on the way of being taken over. Although Guan Yu made speedy advance on Wei's Fan Castle, it would not matter once he heard reports come from the rear of his former provinces.--Zhang Liao 06:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

True Enough, Lu Xun was known as a "white-faced scholar" and so he became even more arrogant and thus caused this war. Mastertkw

Dong Zhao's suggestion

The unedited version told what's in the novel "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms" than what really happened in history. Therefore, I made some corrections on it based on Chen Shou's Records of Three Kingdoms. --Ekman230 (talk) 07:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The strength between the two belligerents

The strength of Guan Yu's orighinal army was obviously not only 15,000. Guan Yu laid seize not only to the city of Fancheng but XiangYang also, and he had to make sure that he had enough soldiers to guard his supply line and retreat route so that he didn't get cut off. Actually, back at AD215, Guan Yu had already had control over a 30,000 strong army alone, when he faced Lu Su's 10,000 at Yiyang (益陽) for the ownership struggle of Jingzhou. Therefore, Guan Yu's moblie force was at least 30,000 strong (not counting the troops stationed inside cities to prevent Sun Quan's possible invasion), and during the middle of the battle, he called forth reinforcements from Jingzhou which increased his army size to about 40,000+. The question is how many soldiers Wei sent to resist Guan Yu. I don't have an answer for this question, but i have some useful information which may help to explain why Guan Yu was still hesitating to retreat when he already knew Sun Quan had sent army to attack Jingzhou.At the time Guan Yu surrouded Fancheng and the city's food supply was running out, there were only Xu Huang, Yin Shu, and Zhu Gai outside the city's wall to defend the flooded city. But the size of this reinforcement was not large. Xu Huang was given command of 10,000 soldiers during the struggle of Hanzhong, yet there is no record of how much soldiers did he have when came to Fancheng, but we should note that he was in fact not a very famous general BEFORE he defeated Guan Yu (he even couldn't gain advantage when facing young Ling Tong at the Battle of Jiangling with a numerical superiority).Yin Shu had been given command of 5000 surrendered soldiers from Ma Chao; the size of Zhu Gai’s army should be less or equal to Yin Shu’s, so the reinforcement leaded by them should be around 10,000 strong. Thus, their combined forces with Xu Huang should not exceed that of Guan Yu's, and that's what made Guan Yu hesitate to give up attack on Fancheng. --Ekman230 (talk) 08:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Attention needed

What about this article that requires attention? _LDS (talk) 11:01, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Did Liu Bei own the least of the Jing Province?

The Jing Province was divided into 9 commandaries, and right after the battle of Red Cliff, Cao Cao had control over Nanyang (南阳), Xiangyang (襄阳), Nanjun (南郡) and part of Jiangxia (江夏) commandaries, Liu Bei seized Lingling (零陵), Guiyang (桂阳), Wuling (武陵), and Changsha (长沙)commandaries, while Sun Quan only owned a portion of Jiangxia (江夏) commandary. But in AD 209, Zhou Yu defeated Cao Ren and gained Nanjun (which Jiangling city is it's capital city); however, a few months later, Liu Bei successfully "borrowed" Nanjun from Sun Quan; at this point, Liu Bei had controlled most of the Jing Province. But in AD 214, Sun Quan appointed Lu Meng, Sun Jiao, and Ling Tong to take back Jing Provice as Liu Bei refused to return Nanjun after he conquered the Yi Province. Lu Meng was quite successful on his mission, and Liu Bei was forced to offer a truce, which divided Jing Province between him and Sun Quan, after he heard news that Cao Cao might invade Yi Provice. Thus, before Guan Yu launched his war against Cao Cao, Liu Bei had control over Nanjun, Lingling, and Wuling commandaries, Sun Quan had Changsha, a portion of Jiangxia, and Guiyang commandaries (遂分荊州、長沙、江夏、桂陽以東屬權，南郡、零陵、武陵以西屬備 ), and Cao Cao only controlled Nanyang, Xiangyang and a portion of Jiangxia commandaries. Here, we should notice that of those 9 commandaries, Nanjun was the most important as the capital city of the whole Jing Province, Jiangling city, was inside Nanjun. Therefore, Liu Bei not only controlled the MOST of Jing Province, but also had the best part of it. In other words, we have to rewrite the "Analysis" part of the article... EkmanLi (talk) 00:31, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Did Guan Yu suffer a logistic problem?

I couldn't find records that indicate Guan Yu had any sort of logistic problem during his campaign. Interestingly, I find out that even at the time Lu Meng had attacked his rear, Guan Yu didn't face food shortage, and was still considering to continue the siege on Fencheng. EkmanLi (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)