Talk:COVID-19 misinformation

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WikiProject COVID-19 consensus

WikiProject COVID-19 aims to add to and build consensus for pages relating to COVID-19. They have so far discussed items listed below. Please discuss proposed improvements to them at the project talk page.

General

Superseded by TfD October 2020 and later practice - consult regular {{Current}} guidance.

Refrain from using Worldometer (worldometers.info) as a source due to common errors being observed as noted on the Case Count Task Force common errors page. (April 2020, April 2020)

For infoboxes on the main articles of countries, use Wuhan, Hubei, China for the origin parameter. (March 2020)

"Social distancing" is generally preferred over "physical distancing". (April 2020, May 2020)

Page title

COVID-19 (full caps) is preferable in the body of all articles, and in the title of all articles/category pages/etc.(RM April 2020, including the main article itself, RM March 2021).

SARS-CoV-2 (exact capitalisation and punctuation) is the common name of the virus and should be used for the main article's title, as well as in the body of all articles, and in the title of all other articles/category pages/etc. (June 2022, overturning April 2020)

Map

There is no consensus about which color schemes to use, but they should be consistent within articles as much as possible. There is agreement that there should be six levels of shading, plus gray for areas with no instances or no data. (May 2020)

There is no consensus about whether the legend, the date, and other elements should appear in the map image itself. (May 2020)

For map legends, ranges should use fixed round numbers (as opposed to updating dynamically). There is no consensus on what base population to use for per capita maps. (May 2020)

To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Omer Benjakob (9 February 2020). "On Wikipedia, a fight is raging over coronavirus disinformation". Wired. Retrieved 15 February 2020.
Noam Cohen (15 February 2020). "How Wikipedia Prevents the Spread of Coronavirus Misinformation". Wired. Retrieved 15 February 2020.
Renée DiResta (21 July 2021). "The CDC Should Be More Like Wikipedia". The Atlantic. Retrieved 21 July 2021.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Misinformation related to the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic was copied or moved into 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic with this edit on 12 April 2020. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Text has been copied to or from this article; see the list below. The source pages now serve to provide attribution for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2022 and 27 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Phrenic490 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Lucyc2.

Section sizes

Section size for COVID-19 misinformation (97 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	6,137	6,137
Overview	17,875	17,875
Virus origin	18,366	138,902
Wuhan lab origin	390	27,695
Bio-weapon	10,033	10,033
Gain-of-function research	5,224	5,224
Accidental release of collected sample	12,048	12,048
Stolen from Canadian lab	5,350	5,350
Accusations by China	17,375	17,375
Accusations by Russia	8,468	8,468
Accusations by other countries	16,833	16,833
Jewish origin	53	9,226
In the Muslim world	5,758	5,758
In the United States	872	872
In Germany	1,249	1,249
In Britain	1,294	1,294
Muslims spreading virus	3,604	3,604
Population-control scheme	2,313	2,313
5G mobile networks	24,868	24,868
American scientist selling virus to China	1,803	1,803
Meteor origin	1,218	1,218
NCMI intelligence report	1,783	1,783
PCR testing	5,245	5,245
Symptoms and severity	2,996	2,996
Incidence and mortality	825	32,657
In China	15	9,819
Chinese under-reporting during early 2020	1,866	1,866
Nurse whistleblower	2,753	2,753
Alleged leak of death toll by Tencent	1,810	1,810
Mass cremation in Wuhan	2,480	2,480
Decline in cellphone subscriptions	895	895
In the US	2,393	10,857
Allegations of inflated death counts	3,660	3,660
Misleading Johns Hopkins News-Letter article	4,804	4,804
Misinformation targeting Taiwan	6,772	6,772
Misrepresented World Population Project map	1,061	1,061
"Casedemic"	3,323	3,323
Disease spread	1,315	43,835
California herd immunity in 2019	3,752	3,752
Patient Zero	1,700	1,700
Airborne	4,439	4,439
Surfaces	1,703	1,703
Susceptibility based on ethnicity	6,501	12,844
Xenophobic blaming by ethnicity and religion	6,343	6,343
Bat soup	5,461	5,461
Large gatherings	799	799
Lifetime of the virus	713	713
Mosquitoes	139	139
Contaminated objects	2,489	2,489
Cruise ships as safe havens	6,204	6,204
Breastfeeding	699	699
Sexual transmission and infertility	1,578	1,578
Prevention	1,149	42,084
Hand sanitizer, antibacterial soaps	3,471	3,471
Public use of face masks	12,538	12,538
Alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs	6,809	6,809
Warm or hot drinks	986	986
Religious protection	9,574	9,574
Helicopter spraying	1,449	1,449
Food	2,391	2,391
Vitamin D	3,717	3,717
Vaccines	272	272
Hospital conditions	1,562	1,562
Treatment	553	30,936
Herbal treatments	2,984	2,984
Vitamin C	1,843	1,843
Common cold and flu treatments	2,430	2,430
Cow dung and urine	3,714	3,714
2-Deoxy-D-glucose	2,333	2,333
Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) prescriptions	2,917	2,917
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine	1,625	1,625
Ivermectin	86	86
Dangerous treatments	2,642	2,642
Silver	4,105	4,105
Mustard oil	832	832
Untested treatments	2,817	2,817
Spiritual healing	1,469	1,469
Organ trafficking	586	586
Other	10	15,186
Name of the disease	1,560	1,560
Simpsons prediction	1,043	1,043
Return of wildlife	4,374	4,374
Virus remains in body permanently	305	305
COVID-19 denialism	2,750	2,750
Antisemitism	2,272	2,272
US anti-vax anti-China covert operation	2,872	2,872
Efforts to combat misinformation	2,821	29,169
Social media	7,476	7,476
Wikipedia	2,541	2,541
Newspapers and scholarly journals	2,183	2,183
Podcasts	1,320	1,320
Government censorship	12,828	12,828
Scams	5,908	5,908
See also	266	266
Notes	24	24
References	28	28
External links	2,817	2,817
Total	375,899	375,899

Origins of COVID-19: Current consensus

There is no consensus on whether the lab leak theory is a "conspiracy theory" or a "minority scientific viewpoint". (RfC, February 2021)
There is consensus against defining "disease and pandemic origins" (broadly speaking) as a form of biomedical information for the purpose of WP:MEDRS. However, information that already fits into biomedical information remains classified as such, even if it relates to disease and pandemic origins (e.g. genome sequences, symptom descriptions, phylogenetic trees). (RfC, May 2021)
In multiple prior non-RFC discussions about manuscripts authored by Rossana Segreto and/or Yuri Deigin, editors have found the sources to be unreliable. Specifically, editors were not convinced by the credentials of the authors, and concerns were raised with the editorial oversight of the BioEssays "Problems & Paradigms" series. (Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Feb 2021, June 2021, ...)
The consensus of scientists is that SARS-CoV-2 is likely of zoonotic origin. (January 2021, May 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, WP:NOLABLEAK (frequently cited in discussions))
The March 2021 WHO report on the origins of SARS-CoV-2 should be referred to as the "WHO-convened report" or "WHO-convened study" on first usage in article prose, and may be abbreviated as "WHO report" or "WHO study" thereafter. (RfC, June 2021)
The "manufactured bioweapon" idea should be described as a "conspiracy theory" in wiki-voice. (January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, July 2021, July 2021, July 2021, August 2021)
The scientific consensus (and the Frutos et al. sources ([1][2]) which support it), which dismisses the lab leak, should not be described as "based in part on Shi [Zhengli]'s emailed answers." (RfC, December 2021)
The American FBI and Department of Energy finding that a lab leak was likely should not be mentioned in the lead of COVID-19 lab leak theory, because it is WP:UNDUE. (RFC, October 2023)
The article COVID-19 lab leak theory may not go through the requested moves process between 4 March 2024 and 3 March 2025. (RM, March 2024)

Which pages use this template?

Last updated (diff) on 15 March 2024 by Novem Linguae (t · c)

Lab leak theory sources

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

List of good sources with good coverage to help expand. Not necessarily for inclusion but just for consideration. Preferably not articles that just discuss a single quote/press conference. The long-style reporting would be even better. Feel free to edit directly to add to the list. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last updated by Julian Brown (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

[edit] ·

Scholarship

For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:SCHOLARSHIP. For a database curated by the NCBI, see LitCoVID

Chen, Xin; Kalyar, Fatema; Chughtai, Abrar Ahmad; MacIntyre, Chandini Raina (2024-03-15). "Use of a risk assessment tool to determine the origin of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)". Risk Analysis. doi:10.1111/risa.14291.
Redfield, Robert (2023-03-08). "COVID Origins Hearing Wrap Up: Facts, Science, Evidence Point to a Wuhan Lab Leak". House Oversight Comittee. House Oversight Comitee. Retrieved 16 January 2023.
Berche, Patrick (2023-06-02). "Gain-of-function and origin of Covid19". Presse Medicale. 52 (1): 104167. doi:10.1016/j.lpm.2023.104167. ISSN 2213-0276. PMC 10234839. PMID 37269978.
Domingo, Jose L. (2022-12-01). "An updated review of the scientific literature on the origin of SARS-CoV-2". Environmental Research. 215: 114131. Bibcode:2022ER....215k4131D. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2022.114131. ISSN 0013-9351. PMC 9420317. PMID 36037920.
Courtier-Orgogozo, Virginie; de Ribera, Francisco A. (2022-11-01). "SARS-CoV-2 infection at the Huanan seafood market". Environmental Research. 214: 113702. Bibcode:2022ER....214k3702C. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2022.113702. ISSN 0013-9351. PMC 9220909. PMID 35752330.
Keusch, Gerald T.; Amuasi, John H.; Anderson, Danielle E.; Daszak, Peter; Eckerle, Isabella; Field, Hume; Koopmans, Marion; Lam, Sai Kit; Das Neves, Carlos G.; Peiris, Malik; Perlman, Stanley; Wacharapluesadee, Supaporn; Yadana, Su; Saif, Linda (2022-10-18). "Pandemic origins and a One Health approach to preparedness and prevention: Solutions based on SARS-CoV-2 and other RNA viruses". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 119 (42): e2202871119. Bibcode:2022PNAS..11902871K. doi:10.1073/pnas.2202871119. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 9586299. PMID 36215506.
Sachs, Jeffrey D.; Karim, Salim S. Abdool; Aknin, Lara; Allen, Joseph; Brosbøl, Kirsten; Colombo, Francesca; Barron, Gabriela Cuevas; Espinosa, María Fernanda; Gaspar, Vitor; Gaviria, Alejandro; Haines, Andy; Hotez, Peter J.; Koundouri, Phoebe; Bascuñán, Felipe Larraín; Lee, Jong-Koo (2022-10-08). "The Lancet Commission on lessons for the future from the COVID-19 pandemic". The Lancet. 400 (10359): 1224–1280. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(22)01585-9. ISSN 0140-6736. PMID 36115368.
Thakur, Nagendra; Das, Sayak; Kumar, Swatantra; Maurya, Vimal K.; Dhama, Kuldeep; Paweska, Janusz T.; Abdel‐Moneim, Ahmed S.; Jain, Amita; Tripathi, Anil K.; Puri, Bipin; Saxena, Shailendra K. (2022-09-08). "Tracing the origin of Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus‐2 (SARS‐CoV‐2): A systematic review and narrative synthesis". Journal of Medical Virology. 94 (12): 5766–5779. doi:10.1002/jmv.28060. ISSN 0146-6615. PMC 9538017. PMID 35945190.
Worobey, Michael; Levy, Joshua I.; Serrano, Lorena M. Malpica; Crits-Christoph, Alexander; Pekar, Jonathan E.; Goldstein, Stephen A.; Rasmussen, Angela L.; Kraemer, Moritz U. G.; Newman, Chris; Koopmans, Marion P. G.; Suchard, Marc A. (2022-07-26). "The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the early epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic". Science. 377 (6609): 951–959. Bibcode:2022Sci...377..951W. doi:10.1126/science.abp8715. PMC 9348750. PMID 35881010.
Pekar, Jonathan E.; Magee, Andrew; Parker, Edyth; Moshiri, Niema; Izhikevich, Katherine; Havens, Jennifer L.; Gangavarapu, Karthik; Malpica Serrano, Lorena Mariana; Crits-Christoph, Alexander; Matteson, Nathaniel L.; Zeller, Mark (2022-07-26). "The molecular epidemiology of multiple zoonotic origins of SARS-CoV-2". Science. 377 (6609): 960–966. Bibcode:2022Sci...377..960P. doi:10.1126/science.abp8337. ISSN 0036-8075. PMC 9348752. PMID 35881005.
Isonne, Claudia; De Blasiis, Maria Roberta; Turatto, Federica; Mazzalai, Elena; Marzuillo, Carolina; De Vito, Corrado; Villari, Paolo; Baccolini, Valentina (June 2022). "What Went Wrong with the IMMUNI Contact-Tracing App in Italy? A Cross-Sectional Survey on the Attitudes and Experiences among Healthcare University Students". Life. 12 (6): 871. Bibcode:2022Life...12..871I. doi:10.3390/life12060871. ISSN 2075-1729. PMC 9225335. PMID 35743902.
Zhao, Shilei; Hou, Yali; Zhang, Xiaolong; Hughes, Alice; Liu, Na; Peng, Minsheng; Wang, Qihui; Xue, Yongbiao; Chen, Hua (2022-05-24). "Pinpointing the animal origins of SARS-CoV-2: a genomic approach". Journal of Genetics and Genomics. 49 (9): 900–902. doi:10.1016/j.jgg.2022.05.002. ISSN 1673-8527. PMC 9128337. PMID 35623453.
Frutos, Roger; Pliez, Olivier; Gavotte, Laurent; Devaux, Christian A. (2022-05-01). "There is no "origin" to SARS-CoV-2". Environmental Research. 207: 112173. Bibcode:2022ER....207k2173F. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2021.112173. ISSN 0013-9351. PMC 8493644. PMID 34626592.
Borsetti, Alessandra; Scarpa, Fabio; Maruotti, Antonello; Divino, Fabio; Ceccarelli, Giancarlo; Giovanetti, Marta; Ciccozzi, Massimo (April 2022). "The unresolved question on COVID‐19 virus origin: The three cards game?". Journal of Medical Virology. 94 (4): 1257–1260. doi:10.1002/jmv.27519. ISSN 0146-6615. PMID 34897750. S2CID 245171943.
Temmam, Sarah; Vongphayloth, Khamsing; Baquero, Eduard; Munier, Sandie; Bonomi, Massimiliano; Regnault, Béatrice; Douangboubpha, Bounsavane; Karami, Yasaman; Chrétien, Delphine; Sanamxay, Daosavanh; Xayaphet, Vilakhan (April 2022). "Bat coronaviruses related to SARS-CoV-2 and infectious for human cells". Nature. 604 (7905): 330–336. Bibcode:2022Natur.604..330T. doi:10.1038/s41586-022-04532-4. ISSN 1476-4687. PMID 35172323.
Barker, Hannah; Chen, Chen (March 2022). "Pandemic Outbreaks and the Language of Violence: Discussing the Origins of the Black Death and COVID-19". Chest: S0012369222004433. doi:10.1016/j.chest.2022.03.010. PMC 8925085. PMID 35305972.
Zhai, Yida; Yan, Zheng (2022-03-24). "Political Ideology, Ingroup Favoritism, and Conspiratorial Thinking: Patriotism, Nationalism, and COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories". Psychological Reports. 126 (4): 1784–1802. doi:10.1177/00332941221079727. ISSN 0033-2941. PMC 8958302. PMID 35324351.
Voskarides, Konstantinos (2022-03-18). "SARS-CoV-2: tracing the origin, tracking the evolution". BMC Medical Genomics. 15 (1): 62. doi:10.1186/s12920-022-01208-w. ISSN 1755-8794. PMC 8931788. PMID 35303887.
DiEuliis, Diane; Giordano, James (2022-02-28). "The Need for Modernization of Biosecurity in the Post-COVID World". mSphere. 7 (2): e00025–22. doi:10.1128/msphere.00025-22. ISSN 2379-5042. PMC 9044947. PMID 35224977.
Liu, William (2023-04-05). "Surveillance of SARS-CoV-2 at the Huanan Seafood Market". Nature: 1–3. doi:10.1038/s41586-023-06043-2. PMID 37019149. Retrieved 19 July 2023.
Lawler, Odette K; Allan, Hannah L; Baxter, Peter W J; Castagnino, Romi; Tor, Marina Corella; Dann, Leah E; Hungerford, Joshua; Karmacharya, Dibesh; Lloyd, Thomas J; López-Jara, María José; Massie, Gloeta N; Novera, Junior; Rogers, Andrew M; Kark, Salit (November 2021). "The COVID-19 pandemic is intricately linked to biodiversity loss and ecosystem health". The Lancet. Planetary Health. 5 (11): e840–e850. doi:10.1016/S2542-5196(21)00258-8. PMC 8580505. PMID 34774124.
Primary: Chan, Yujia Alina; Zhan, Shing Hei (November 2021). "The emergence of the spike furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2". Molecular Biology and Evolution. PMID 34788836.
Rozado, David (September 2021). "Prevalence in News Media of Two Competing Hypotheses about COVID-19 Origins". Social Sciences. 10 (9): 320. doi:10.3390/socsci10090320. ISSN 2076-0760.
Holmes, Edward C.; Goldstein, Stephen A.; Rasmussen, Angela L.; Robertson, David L.; Crits-Christoph, Alexander; Wertheim, Joel O.; Anthony, Simon J.; Barclay, Wendy S.; Boni, Maciej F.; Doherty, Peter C.; Farrar, Jeremy; Geoghegan, Jemma L.; Jiang, Xiaowei; Leibowitz, Julian L.; Neil, Stuart J.D.; Skern, Tim; Weiss, Susan R.; Worobey, Michael; Andersen, Kristian G.; Garry, Robert F.; Rambaut, Andrew (August 2021). "The Origins of SARS-CoV-2: A Critical Review". Cell. 184 (19): 4848–4856. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2021.08.017. PMID 34480864.
Lytras, Spyros; Xia, Wei; Hughes, Joseph; Jiang, Xiaowei; Robertson, David L. (17 August 2021). "The animal origin of SARS-CoV-2". Science. 373 (6558): 968–970. Bibcode:2021Sci...373..968L. doi:10.1126/science.abh0117. PMID 34404734.
Singh, Devika; Yi, Soojin V. (April 2021). "On the origin and evolution of SARS-CoV-2". Experimental & Molecular Medicine. 53 (4): 537–547. doi:10.1038/s12276-021-00604-z. PMC 8050477. PMID 33864026.
Frutos, Roger; Gavotte, Laurent; Devaux, Christian A. (March 2021). "Understanding the origin of COVID-19 requires to change the paradigm on zoonotic emergence from the spillover to the circulation model". Infection, Genetics and Evolution. 95: 104812. doi:10.1016/j.meegid.2021.104812. PMC 7969828. PMID 33744401.
Sallard, Erwan; Halloy, José; Casane, Didier; Decroly, Etienne; Van Helden, Jacques (February 2021). "Tracing the origins of SARS-COV-2 in coronavirus phylogenies: a review". Environmental Chemistry Letters. 19 (2): 769–785. Bibcode:2021EnvCL..19..769S. doi:10.1007/s10311-020-01151-1. PMID 33558807.
Hakim, Mohamad S. (14 February 2021). "SARS‐CoV‐2, Covid‐19, and the debunking of conspiracy theories". Reviews in Medical Virology. 31 (6): e2222. doi:10.1002/rmv.2222. ISSN 1052-9276. PMC 7995093. PMID 33586302.
Barh, Debmalya; Silva Andrade, Bruno; Tiwari, Sandeep; Giovanetti, Marta; Góes-Neto, Aristóteles; Alcantara, Luiz Carlos Junior; Azevedo, Vasco; Ghosh, Preetam (1 September 2020). "Natural selection versus creation: a review on the origin of SARS-COV-2". Le Infezioni in Medicina. 28 (3): 302–311. ISSN 1124-9390. PMID 32920565.
Graham, Rachel L.; Baric, Ralph S. (19 May 2020). "SARS-CoV-2: Combating Coronavirus Emergence". Immunity. 52 (5): 734–736. doi:10.1016/j.immuni.2020.04.016. ISSN 1074-7613. PMC 7207110. PMID 32392464.
Zhang, Yong-Zhen; Holmes, Edward C. (April 2020). "A Genomic Perspective on the Origin and Emergence of SARS-CoV-2". Cell. 181 (2): 223–227. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2020.03.035. PMID 32220310.
Primary: Andersen, Kristian G.; Rambaut, Andrew; Lipkin, W. Ian; Holmes, Edward C.; Garry, Robert F. (March 2020). "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2". Nature Medicine. 26 (4): 450–452. doi:10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9. ISSN 1546-170X. PMC 7095063. PMID 32284615.

[edit] ·

Journalism

For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:NEWSORG.

Michael R. Gordon and Warren P. Strobel (20 June 2023). "U.S.-Funded Scientist Among Three Chinese Researchers Who Fell Ill Amid Early Covid-19 Outbreak". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 21 June 2023.

Jonathan Calvert and George Arbuthnott (10 June 2023). "What really went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted". Archived from the original on 10 June 2023. Retrieved 10 June 2023.

Mara Hvistendahl and Benjamin Mueller (23 April 2023). "Chinese Censorship Is Quietly Rewriting the Covid-19 Story". Archived from the original on 24 April 2023. Retrieved 30 April 2023.

Sasha Pezenik, Josh Margolin, Kaitlyn Morris, and Terry Moran (18 April 2023). "New report from Senate Republicans doubles down on COVID lab leak theory". ABC news. Retrieved 20 April 2023.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Paun, Carmen; Zeller, Shawn; Reader, Ruth; Leonard, Ben; Scullion, Grace. "Cross-examining the lab-leak theorists". POLITICO. Retrieved 6 December 2022.

Max, Tani. "ProPublica scrambles to check translation in COVID origin story". Semafor. Retrieved 2022-11-03.

Mueller, Benjamin; Zimmer, Carl (27 October 2022). "G.O.P. Senator's Report on Covid Origins Suggests Lab Leak, but Offers Little New Evidence". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 December 2022.

Chan, Alina (3 June 2024). "Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab, in 5 Key Points". The New York Times. Retrieved 13 August 2024.

Kao, Katherine; Eban, Jeff. "COVID-19 Origins: Investigating a "Complex and Grave Situation" Inside a Wuhan Lab". ProPublica. Retrieved 2022-11-03.

Grim, Ryan. "NIH Awards New Grant to U.S. Organization at Center of Covid-19 Lab Leak Controversy". The Intercept. Retrieved 2022-11-03.
Cohen, Jon. "Republican Senate staff tout lab-leak theory of the pandemic's origin". Science. Retrieved 2022-11-03.
Cohen, Jon. "From 'open-minded' to 'underwhelming,' mixed reactions greet latest COVID-19 origin report". Science. Retrieved 2022-06-12.
"China calls COVID 'lab leak' theory a lie after WHO report". AP NEWS. 2022-06-10. Retrieved 2022-06-14.
Schulson, Michael (2022-06-01). "The Challenges of Calculating a Lab Leak Risk". Undark Magazine. Retrieved 2022-06-14.
Piper, Kelsey (2022-04-05). "Why experts are terrified of a human-made pandemic — and what we can do to stop it". Vox. Retrieved 2022-04-05.
Eban, Katherine (2022-03-31). ""This Shouldn't Happen": Inside the Virus-Hunting Nonprofit at the Center of the Lab-Leak Controversy". Vanity Fair. Retrieved 2022-04-03.
Law, Tara (2022-03-29). "Lab Leaks Are a Small But Real Risk in Ukraine. Russian Disinformation Is The True Threat". Time. Retrieved 2022-04-03.
Zimmer, Carl (2022-03-21). "'He Goes Where the Fire Is': A Virus Hunter in the Wuhan Market". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-03-22.
Maxmen, Amy (2022-03-17). "Scientists struggle to probe COVID's origins amid sparse data from China". Nature. doi:10.1038/d41586-022-00732-0.
Gallagher, Evangeline (2022-03-09). "This Is How Covid Started. And Here's How We Stop the Next One". The New Republic. ISSN 0028-6583. Retrieved 2022-03-22.
Thacker, Paul (2022-03-08). "Is the media still stifling the lab-leak theory?". UnHerd. Retrieved 2022-03-17.
Jon, Cohen (2022-02-28). "Do three new studies add up to proof of COVID-19's origin in a Wuhan animal market?". Science. doi:10.1126/science.adb1727.
Maxmen, Amy (2022-02-27). "Wuhan market was epicentre of pandemic's start, studies suggest". Nature. doi:10.1038/d41586-022-00584-8. ISSN 0028-0836.
Zimmer, Carl; Mueller, Benjamin (26 February 2022). "New Research Points to Wuhan Market as Pandemic Origin". The New York Times. Retrieved 3 April 2022.
Knapton, Sarah (2022-02-22). "Wuhan lab leak theory 'accepted as likely behind closed doors at No 10'". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Retrieved 2022-02-23.
Lerner, Sharon (2022-02-20). "NIH Sent The Intercept 292 Fully Redacted Pages Related to Virus Research in Wuhan". The Intercept. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Qiu, Jane (2022-02-09). "Meet the scientist at the center of the covid lab leak controversy". MIT Technology Review. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Pinkstone, Joe (2022-02-03). "Covid lab leak theories 'have put world at risk of a new pandemic'". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Knapton, Sarah (2022-01-11). "Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt 'international harmony'". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Achenbach, Joel (18 November 2021). "Prominent scientist who said lab-leak theory of covid-19 origin should be probed now believes evidence points to Wuhan market". The Washington Post.
Honigsbaum, Mark (15 November 2021). "Viral by Alina Chan and Matt Ridley review – was Covid-19 really made in China?". the Guardian.
Rindsberg, Ashley (15 November 2021). "The Lab Leak Fiasco". Tablet.
Blakely, Rhys (11 November 2021). "The Covid-19 lab-leak theory: 'I've had death threats'". The Times.
Kormann, Carolyn (12 October 2021). "The Mysterious Case of the COVID-19 Lab-Leak Theory". The New Yorker.
Federman, Daniel Engber, Adam (25 September 2021). "The Lab-Leak Debate Just Got Even Messier". The Atlantic. Retrieved 25 September 2021.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Cohen, Jon (2021-09-02). "Why many scientists say it's unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 originated from a 'lab leak'". Science. Retrieved 2022-06-11.
Oreskes, Naomi (September 2021). "The Lab-Leak Theory of COVID's Origin Is Not Totally Irrational". Scientific American.
Dyer, Owen (27 July 2021). "Covid-19: China stymies investigation into pandemic's origins". BMJ. 374. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1890. n1890.
Doucleff, Michaeleen (2021-07-19). "New Data Leads To Rethinking (Once More) Where The Pandemic Actually Began". WBUR. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Krishnaswamy, S.; Govindarajan, T. R. (16 July 2021). "The controversy being created about the origins of the virus that causes COVID-19". Frontline.
Kasprak, Alex (16 July 2021). "The 'Occam's Razor Argument' Has Not Shifted in Favor of a Lab Leak". Snopes.com. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
Thacker, Paul D. (8 July 2021). "The covid-19 lab leak hypothesis: did the media fall victim to a misinformation campaign?". BMJ. 374: n1656. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1656. ISSN 1756-1833.
Jacobsen, Rowan (29 June 2021). "Inside the risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan". MIT Technology Review.
McKelvey, Tara (27 June 2021). "Wuhan lab-leak theory fuels Trump comeback rally". BBC News.
Fay Cortez, Michelle (27 June 2021). "The Last—And Only—Foreign Scientist in the Wuhan Lab Speaks Out". Bloomberg News. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
Regalado, Antonio (25 June 2021). "They called it a conspiracy theory. But Alina Chan tweeted life into the idea that the virus came from a lab". MIT Technology Review.
Hvistendahl, Mara (19 June 2021). "I Visited a Chinese Lab at the Center of a Biosafety Debate. What I Learned Helps Explain the Clash Over Covid-19's Origins". The Intercept.
Evans, Anna Muldoon, Nicholas G. (18 June 2021). "There Is No Good Way to Even Investigate the Lab Leak Theory". Slate Magazine.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Ling, Justin (15 June 2021). "The Lab Leak Theory Doesn't Hold Up". Foreign Policy.
Folmer, Kaitlyn (14 June 2021). "Nature-based or lab leak? Unraveling the debate over the origins of COVID-19". ABC News.
Wallace-Wells, David (12 June 2021). "The Implications of the Lab-Leak Hypothesis". Intelligencer.
Larson, Christina; Merchant, Nomaan (9 June 2021). "EXPLAINER: The US investigation into COVID-19 origins". AP NEWS. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
Maxmen, Amy; Mallapaty, Smriti (8 June 2021). "The COVID lab-leak hypothesis: what scientists do and don't know". Nature. 594 (7863): 313–315. doi:10.1038/d41586-021-01529-3.
Irfan, Umair (7 June 2021). "The lab leak hypothesis, explained". Vox.
Jacobsen, Rowan (6 June 2021). "How amateur sleuths broke the Wuhan Lab story and embarrassed the media". Newsweek.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link) (The reliability of Newsweek post-2013 is debated and context-specific. One rationale for why this particular source is probably not unreliable is presented here.)
"How the 'Wuhan lab leak' went from conspiracy theory to top presidential priority". The Week UK. 4 June 2021.
Eban, Katherine (3 June 2021). "The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19's Origins". Vanity Fair.
Sohn, Rebecca (3 June 2021). "A Very Calm Guide to the Lab Leak Theory". Slate Magazine.
Palus, Shannon (29 May 2021). "Just Because We're Talking About the Lab Leak Theory Doesn't Mean It's Come True". Slate Magazine.
Brumfiel, Geoff (28 May 2021). "Many Scientists Still Think The Coronavirus Came From Nature". NPR.org.
Beaumont, Peter (2021-05-27). "Did Covid come from a Wuhan lab? What we know so far". The Guardian.
Zimmer, Carl; Gorman, James; Mueller, Benjamin (27 May 2021). "Scientists Don't Want to Ignore the 'Lab Leak' Theory, Despite No New Evidence". The New York Times.
Hinshaw, Drew; Page, Jeremy (27 May 2021). "Time Is Running Out in Covid-19 Origins Inquiry, Say WHO-Led Team Members". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
Wallace-Wells, Benjamin (27 May 2021). "The Sudden Rise of the Coronavirus Lab-Leak Theory". The New Yorker.
Maxmen, Amy (27 May 2021). "Divisive COVID 'lab leak' debate prompts dire warnings from researchers". Nature. 594 (7861): 15–16. doi:10.1038/d41586-021-01383-3.
Whipple, Tom (27 May 2021). "Could a Wuhan lab leak really be to blame for Covid?". The Times.
Kessler, Glenn (25 May 2021). "Timeline: How the Wuhan lab-leak theory suddenly became credible". The Washington Post.
Hinshaw, Michael R. Gordon, Warren P. Strobel and Drew (23 May 2021). "WSJ News Exclusive Intelligence on Sick Staff at Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate on Covid-19 Origin". Wall Street Journal.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Kannan, Saikiran (2021-05-18). "Bat out of hell? Covid is global but questions over Wuhan lab leak won't go away". India Today. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Jacobsen, Rowan (May 13, 2021). "Top researchers are calling for a real investigation into the origin of covid-19". MIT Technology Review.
Gorman, James; Barnes, Julian E. (26 March 2021). "The C.D.C.'s ex-director offers no evidence in favoring speculation that the coronavirus originated in a lab". The New York Times.
Rogin, Josh (8 March 2021). "In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened". Politico Magazine.
Baker, Nicholson (4 January 2021). "The Lab-Leak Hypothesis". Intelligencer.
Jacobsen, Rowan (9 September 2020). "Could COVID-19 Have Escaped from a Lab?". Boston Magazine.
Jacobsen, Rowan (14 May 2020). "The non-paranoid person's guide to viruses escaping from labs". Mother Jones.

[edit] ·

Opinion-based editorials written by scientists/scholars

For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.

Garry, Robert F. (2022-11-22). "The evidence remains clear: SARS-CoV-2 emerged via the wildlife trade". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 119 (47): e2214427119. doi:10.1073/pnas.2214427119. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 9704731. PMID 36355862.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: PMC format (link)
Worobey, Michael; Rasmussen, Angela. "Conspiracy Theories About COVID-19 Help Nobody". Foreign Policy. Retrieved 2022-11-03.
Gorski, David (2022-08-01). "The rise and fall of the lab leak hypothesis for the origin of SARS-CoV-2". Science-Based Medicine. Retrieved 2022-08-12.
Harrison, Neil L.; Sachs, Jeffrey D. (2022-05-24). "A call for an independent inquiry into the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 119 (21): e2202769119. doi:10.1073/pnas.2202769119. ISSN 0027-8424.
Frutos, Roger; Pliez, Olivier; Gavotte, Laurent; Devaux, Christian A. (2022-05-01). "There is no "origin" to SARS-CoV-2". Environmental Research. 207: 112173. doi:10.1016/j.envres.2021.112173. ISSN 0013-9351. PMC 8493644. PMID 34626592.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: PMC format (link)
Holmes, Edward C. (2022-03-11). "COVID-19—lessons for zoonotic disease". Science. 375 (6585): 1114–1115. doi:10.1126/science.abn2222. ISSN 0036-8075.
Lewandowsky, Stephan; Jacobs, Peter; Neil, Stuart (2022-03-01). "The Lab-Leak Hypothesis Made It Harder for Scientists to Seek the Truth". Scientific American.
Graner, François; Courtier-Orgogozo, Virginie; Decroly, Etienne; Ebright, Richard H.; Btler, Colin D; Fabien, Colombo; Kaina, Bernd; Rahalkar, Monali C.; Halloy, José; Bahulikar, Rahul A.; Theißen, Günter,; Leitenberg, Milton; Morand, Serge; Kakeya, Hideki; Jean-Michel, Claverie; van Helden, Jacques (December 2021). "Comment of a critical review about the origins of SARS-CoV-2" (PDF). doi:10.1016/j.cell.2021.08.017.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Orent, Wendy (28 October 2021). "Why I Still Believe Covid-19 Could Not Have Originated in a Lab". Undark Magazine. Retrieved 31 October 2021.
Wain-Hobson, Simon. "Virology: Dangerous gain of function research has gotten out of hand and needs to be reined in". Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. ISSN 0174-4909. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Muller, Richard; Quay, Steven (5 October 2021). "Science Closes In on Covid's Origins - Four studies—including two from WHO—provide powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory". The Wall Street Journal.
Redfield, Robert; Sigel, Marc (15 August 2021). "The World Needs to Know What Happened at the Wuhan Lab". Wall Street Journal.
Godlee, Fiona (8 July 2021). "Covid 19: We need a full open independent investigation into its origins". The BMJ: n1721. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1721.
Baltimore, David (2021-06-22). "The Debate over Origins of SARS-CoV-2". California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Sachs, Jeffrey D. (22 June 2021). "Finding the Origins of COVID-19 and Preventing Future Pandemics". Project Syndicate.
Knight, Peter (21 June 2021). "COVID-19: why lab-leak theory is back despite little new evidence". The Conversation.
Rodrigo, Allen (14 June 2021). "The COVID-19 lab-leak hypothesis is plausible because accidents happen. I should know". The Conversation.
Gorman, James; Zimmer, Carl (2021-06-14). "Scientist Opens Up About His Early Email to Fauci on Virus Origins". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-02-21.
Balaram, P. (10 June 2021). "The murky origins of the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, the causative agent of the COVID-19 pandemic" (PDF). Current Science. 120 (11): 1663–1666.
Seyran, Murat; Pizzol, Damiano; Adadi, Parise; El‐Aziz, Tarek M. A.; Hassan, Sk. Sarif; Soares, Antonio; Kandimalla, Ramesh; Lundstrom, Kenneth; Tambuwala, Murtaza; Aljabali, Alaa A. A.; Lal, Amos; Azad, Gajendra K.; Choudhury, Pabitra P.; Uversky, Vladimir N.; Sherchan, Samendra P.; Uhal, Bruce D.; Rezaei, Nima; Brufsky, Adam M. (March 2021). "Questions concerning the proximal origin of SARS‐CoV‐2". Journal of Medical Virology. 93 (3): 1204–1206. doi:10.1002/jmv.26478.
Rasmussen, Angela L. (January 2021). "On the origins of SARS-CoV-2". Nature Medicine. 27 (1): 9–9. doi:10.1038/s41591-020-01205-5. ISSN 1546-170X. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
Hayes, Polly (13 July 2020). "Here's how scientists know the coronavirus came from bats and wasn't made in a lab". The Conversation.
Talaat, Khaled (6 May 2020). "Wuhan Denialism". Tablet.

[edit] ·

Opinion-based editorials written by journalists

For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.

Wade, Nicholas (2022-12-04). "Proximal Orchestrations". City Journal. Retrieved 2022-12-06.
Yglesias, Matthew (3 November 2022). "The ProPublica-Vanity Fair report on Covid's origins is explosive. Is it reliable?". the Guardian. Retrieved 6 December 2022.
Hiltzik, Michael (1 November 2022). "Column: ProPublica and Vanity Fair are pushing the COVID lab-leak theory, but their exposé is a train wreck". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 6 December 2022.
Wade, Nicholas (2022-03-20). "Why Science Writers Don't Report Objectively on Covid's Origins". City Journal. Retrieved 2022-03-22.
Beyerstein, Lindsay (2021-12-10). "This Terrible Book Shows Why the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory Won't Die". The New Republic. ISSN 0028-6583. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Engber, Daniel (2021-11-24). "The Lab-Leak Theory Meets Its Perfect Match". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Ridley, Matt (20 November 2021). "The Covid lab leak theory just got even stronger". The Spectator.
Weissmueller, Zach (18 November 2021). "Was It a Lab Leak? The Mysterious Origin of COVID-19". Reason.
Zinberg, Joel (1 November 2021). "The Evidence Mounts". City Journal.
Grant, Bob (July 1, 2021). "Labs, Leaks, and Liability". The Scientist. (editorial on how media covers the hypothesis)
Beyerstein, Lindsay (2021-06-29). "The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory". The New Republic. ISSN 0028-6583. Retrieved 2022-02-20.
Young, Alison (June 17, 2021). "'I remember it very well': Dr. Fauci describes a secret 2020 meeting to talk about COVID origins". USA Today. Bio
Soave, Robby (4 June 2021). "The Media's Lab Leak Debacle Shows Why Banning 'Misinformation' Is a Terrible Idea". Reason.
Wade, Nicholas (5 May 2021). "The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora's box at Wuhan?". Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.
Ridley, Matt; Chan, Alina (April 10, 2021). "Bats, pangolins, wet market, lab? The mystery deepens". The Weekend Australian Magazine.
Young, Alison (March 22, 2021). "Could an accident have caused COVID-19? Why the Wuhan lab-leak theory shouldn't be dismissed". USA Today.

[edit] ·

Government and policy

Keep in mind, these are primary sources and thus should be used with caution!

"An Analysis of the Origins of the COVID-19 Pandemic: Interim Report" (PDF). US Senate Committee on Health Education, Labor and Pensions Minority Oversight Staff. October 2022. Retrieved 2022-11-03.
Preliminary. "Preliminary Report for the Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens (SAGO)". www.who.int. 2022-06-09. Retrieved 2022-06-12.
Updated Assessment on COVID-19 Origins (PDF). Washington, D.C.: Office of the Director of National Intelligence. 27 August 2021. p. 17. Retrieved 29 October 2021. (Executive summary of the report)
The Origins of COVID-19: an investigation of the Wuhan Institute of Virology (PDF). US House Foreign Affairs Committee Minority Staff. August 2021. p. 84. Retrieved 7 September 2021.
Brief: Origins of the COVID-19 Pandemic (PDF). Congressional Research Service. 11 June 2021. p. 3. Retrieved 7 September 2021.
"WHO-convened Global Study of Origins of SARS-CoV-2: China Part. Joint Report" (PDF). World Health Organization. 30 March 2021.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
Bandeira, Luiza; Aleksejeva, Nika; Knight, Tessa; Le Roux, Jean (February 2021). Weaponized: how rumors about Covid-19's origins led to a narrative arms race (PDF). Atlantic Council. OCLC 1239728647.
USA House Oversight Committee (July 2023). "Interim Staff Report – The Proximal Origin of a Cover-Up: Did the "Bethesda Boys" Downplay a Lab Leak?". Retrieved 18 July 2023.
Office of the Director of National Intelligence (June 2023). "Potential Links Between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the Origin of the COVID-19 Pandemic" (PDF). Retrieved 19 July 2023.
Testimony of John Radcliffe, US Director of National Intelligence 2020-2021, House Hearing on the Origins of COVID-19, Transcript: [3]; C-Span, 18 April 2024, 16.37mins [4]

References

PCR testing

Someone switched the order of paragraphs under § PCR testing so that the first sentence read: In reality, the reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) test for SARS-CoV-2 is highly sensitive to the virus, and testing laboratories have controls in place to prevent and detect contamination. This is hard to understand without first having any mention of the false claims about "problems" like these. I've restored the original order so it makes more sense. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:27, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misinformation on school safety

Schools in the U.S. were kept closed long after it was proven that they were not a significant risk for transmission. This should be cited in the article. Here are some sources for the true information about the risk of keeping schools open:

May 28, 2020: Reopening schools in Denmark did not worsen outbreak, data shows

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-05-28/opening-schools-in-denmark-did-not-worsen-outbreak-data-shows

July 13, 2020: German study finds no evidence coronavirus spreads in schools

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/13/german-study-finds-no-evidence-coronavirus-spreads-schools/

July 21, 2020: No known case of teacher catching coronavirus from pupils, says scientist

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-known-case-of-teacher-catching-coronavirus-from-pupils-says-scientist-3zk5g2x6z

Mn06hithere227 (talk) 22:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem to be any "misinformation". The relative benefits and harms of school closure in various countries may have been debated and re-assessed over time; that's more "science" than misinformation. See PMID:34311990. Bon courage (talk) 04:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link to Wikipedia article "Infodemic"

The reader may find it helpful to refer to the Wikipedia article on 'Infodemic'. Please include the link if you agree. WikiAuthor1234567890 (talk) 08:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

" to stoke anti-China sentiments, and has led to increased anti-Asian activity on social media and in the real world.

I think that's enough digression for now. No consensus to change our article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:46, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How exactly are the claims that the virus escaped froma a laboratory in China or whatever is meant to spark anti chinese sentiment? How do you people make this connections? 46.97.169.192 (talk) 13:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The content you quote is referenced to newspaper articles. They are linked in the footnotes so you can read about the details. The "connection" is not made by made Wikipedia editors. We merely reflect what reliable sources state. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 13:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consider that the official assertion of every US govt and media organization was based on the notion that the Chinese eat rancid wild animal meat from filthy street markets. 1) Is this not very popularly understood to be the most common American stereotype of the Chinese? 2) How is this much different from the AIDS monkey idea?

OP is absolutely right that it defies basic deductive reasoning to claim that the lab leak theory is bigoted and inciting of violence while the former is perfectly acceptable for polite society. It's fine to keep the sources in there, but the language used seems to suggest their assertions as empirical fact when they were pure opinion based on an orthodoxy that was only ever speculative at best and utter nonsense at worst. The paragraph in which the sources are used needs to be stated as dealing with opinion. 2601:246:4A80:FE0:D51A:B88D:80AA:E4B9 (talk) 02:05, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See PMID:37697176 for some knowledge. Bon courage (talk) 03:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10120873/

It's almost like different people hold different views of subjective issues (even doctors!!!). 2600:1008:B044:87A1:35C8:593C:DB7E:C80 (talk) 06:50, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, that source analyses the "stigmatizing narratives" and "demonstrate[s] the phenomenology of race-based stress and trauma experienced by Asian individuals" and then goes on to consider the mental health implications. So yeah, I think everybody agrees the lab leak nonsense had racist inputs and caused racist outputs. Bon courage (talk) 06:56, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at who repeatedly made those comments reinforces that view. HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. See also cat eating migrants. Bon courage (talk) 07:20, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.