Talk:Clearcutting
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Selection cutting
[edit]From the article: "Clearcutting contrasts with selective cutting, such as high grading, in which only commercially valuable trees are harvested, leaving all others. This practice can reduce the genetic viability of the forest over time, resulting in poorer or less vigorous offspring in the stand."
If clear-cutting is going to be compared with selection cutting, perhaps we shouldn't cherry-pick the most destructive and now rarely-used form of selective cutting. It makes for a very biased Wikipedia article. --Calibas (talk) 22:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
- Selective and selection cutting aren't synonymous- see here. Minnecologiest,c 01:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand the difference now, which only continues to raise the question as to why clear-cutting is being "contrasted" with one of the other most destructive forestry practices. As it is now, the article implies that clear-cutting isn't so bad because high grading is even worse. It should be contrasted with single-tree selection cutting instead. --Calibas (talk) 05:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Okay I see your point now, I think as it was written it was meant to bring light to the fact that clearcutting is erroneously associated with selective cutting/high grading. I agree that it needs to be rewritten, it should more simply explain the difference between it and high grading, STS, etc. Minnecologiest,c 16:55, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand the difference now, which only continues to raise the question as to why clear-cutting is being "contrasted" with one of the other most destructive forestry practices. As it is now, the article implies that clear-cutting isn't so bad because high grading is even worse. It should be contrasted with single-tree selection cutting instead. --Calibas (talk) 05:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Changing the balance of this article?
[edit]I note this editing. I am concerned that we should maintain a strict NPOV here and not gradually make this article more pro-clearcutting. Perhaps Minnecologies could give us his rationale for the changes being made? --Kleinzach 03:26, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd like to see them too. This article is starting to read like forest industry propaganda. Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one. That's essential what's being said here, but I'm sure stating the truth so plainly would seem like bias to some people. --Calibas (talk) 06:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- First of all- Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one.- is an extreme viewpoint.
- Lead - Foresters, a.k.a. forestry scientists, choose to clearcut for all the stated reasons (or use shelterwood or seed-tree methods, hence their inclusion). No matter one's personal opinions, it is what it is, and is what is done to get a high light intensity environment. The phrasing as it was, "Supporters argue that clearcutting is required...", is about as weasely as comes. As is the "Detractors see..." that is still in the article (only 24 hours in a day). Clearcutting is not an "us vs. them" matter, there is plenty of gray zone to warrant a more nuanced and correct article.
- Negative impacts - Reworded in accordance with the new source. As I linked to in one of my edit summaries, an anonymous person brought up the fact that there were a few unacceptable sources used, i.e. the RitchieWiki and SemperFidelis blog are both obvious violations of WP:SELFPUBLISH. To replace the former I found a Canadian government source that covered (or expanded on) the same ground, with the exception of these three points- poor quality re-growth, increased risk of pest epidemics, increased wildfires. I have no clue from what logic any of these are derived, especially as clearcutting (in some form) is done to reduce the risk of the second and third. The entire second paragraph was completely unsourced, painfully written, and digressed from the article, so I removed it.
- External links - Removed those which were already used as references or added nothing of worth.
- Article structure - As was also brought up in the aforementioned talk page discussion, the article should be restructured in accordance with Wikipedia:NPOV#Article structure. What I was intending on doing is taking the parts of both the Positive and Negative impacts sections and rearranging them on a basis of issue- something along the lines of [Clearcutting's effects on] Biodiversity and wildlife habitat, Hydrology (under which content from the free-floating Roy et al. belongs), Recreation, Forest aesthetics (+ property values), so and so forth.
- As of now, the article is contentious, and it's going to take some time to remediate. Let's assume some good faith and grant some patience. Minnecologiest,c 16:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- "[Clearcutting] is used by foresters to create certain types of forest ecosystems and to promote select species that require an abundance of sunlight or grow in large, even-age stands" is the same as "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it [with another]" just with a totally positive spin on it. If you're creating a new ecosystem you must be destroying the one that came before it. Also, is not the main reason for clear-cutting almost entirely economic? This article makes it seem like greed never factors into any decision to clearcut. They do sell the wood, right? And then replace it with other species that grow faster in the sun and hence produce more wood and create more profits? Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one. is not an extreme viewpoint, it's the truth plainly stated. I'm not suggesting putting it in the article though, I know how Wikipedia bureaucracy works well enough to not bother with that. --Calibas (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really agree that "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one." is extreme. How about changing the pejorative word 'destroy' and say "Clear-cutting is used to replace the original ecosystem with another, more profitable one." ? --Kleinzach 03:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- Clearcutting is most often used to replace primary successional species with other or the same primary successional species (Populus, Betula, etc.). It can be used to convert to said species from secondary of climax species, if that is what is decided as best. Then again (making the assumption these are responsible land managers who are held accountable for their actions, which is the heavy majority in the Western World due to law) it'd be silly to do that and risk instating these fast-growing species in an area which has a high site index for more desirable (both economically or socially) species (spruce and pine in boreal forests, maple and basswood in temperate). With the more desirable species it is way more common to use a selection harvest or a modified clearcut (shelterwood or seed tree). This point definitely needs to be made (albeit in an abbreviated fashion, as it belongs more to sustainable/forest management), I'm not going to add anything without some good clear sources to back it up, so I'll get on that.
- Any opinions on the restructuring I proposed? Minnecologiest,c 14:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Clearcutting is most often used to replace primary successional species with other or the same primary successional species It's sentences like these that I see a problem with. It almost sounds like clearing-cutting is used for the health of the forest. While I'm sure that is the intention in some cases, in general if you really care about the health of a forest you don't take heavy machinery in there and chop down most of the trees. The other problem is that it's purely from a forester's perspective, we also have to factor in the logging industry. They don't spend millions chopping down all those trees so that new trees may grow, they chop down all those trees to harvest them and make a profit. --Calibas (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- That sentence is not in the article, I'm just explaining the reality of what is done. Forest health is a very multifaceted issue, but there are instances where clearcutting is used for a forest's health (as I mentioned somewhere earlier, for example in a sanitation harvest). I'm not saying that the point of cutting down trees isn't to make a profit, I'm saying that clearcutting is not used solely to "destroy ecosystems" (again, at least in regulated responsible societies). It's more of a necessary evil, unfortunately. Minnecologiest,c 21:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- I was comparing it to the second sentence in the article, actually. The vast majority of it is done, not for the health of the forest, but to meet society's demand for wood products (and at the level of waste, I'm more inclined to call it an unnecessary evil). You said you're just explaining the reality of what is done but you mention the use for it, which isn't what is done but a why it is done. Are we to believe that clearcutting is normally used to grow trees and promote forest health? I find that very hard to believe. Clearcutting isn't normally used to replace primary successional species with other or the same primary successional species, nor to create certain types of forest ecosystems and to promote select species; clearcutting is normally used to harvest wood. To have that as the second sentence misrepresents the use of clearcutting. You don't harvest something so you can grow more, you harvest because you have some need for the harvest. --Calibas (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- I never was trying to explain "why" clearcutting is done- that's obvious (99% of the time, wood products). I was explaining why clearcutting is (again, in a responsible manner) silviculturally practiced- as it was obvious that the fallacy of "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one", was being perpetuated. Here's a link that spells out, in layman's terms, exactly when this method is appropriate. Which has been the point I've been trying to make all along. Minnecologiest,c 21:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- If the primary use of clear cutting is to create wood products, that should probably be the second sentence of the article. As it stands, it's misleading to people who don't have a background in forestry. It's a backwards way of stating something, to say clearcutting is used to grow more trees. --Calibas (talk) 19:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I never was trying to explain "why" clearcutting is done- that's obvious (99% of the time, wood products). I was explaining why clearcutting is (again, in a responsible manner) silviculturally practiced- as it was obvious that the fallacy of "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one", was being perpetuated. Here's a link that spells out, in layman's terms, exactly when this method is appropriate. Which has been the point I've been trying to make all along. Minnecologiest,c 21:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I was comparing it to the second sentence in the article, actually. The vast majority of it is done, not for the health of the forest, but to meet society's demand for wood products (and at the level of waste, I'm more inclined to call it an unnecessary evil). You said you're just explaining the reality of what is done but you mention the use for it, which isn't what is done but a why it is done. Are we to believe that clearcutting is normally used to grow trees and promote forest health? I find that very hard to believe. Clearcutting isn't normally used to replace primary successional species with other or the same primary successional species, nor to create certain types of forest ecosystems and to promote select species; clearcutting is normally used to harvest wood. To have that as the second sentence misrepresents the use of clearcutting. You don't harvest something so you can grow more, you harvest because you have some need for the harvest. --Calibas (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- That sentence is not in the article, I'm just explaining the reality of what is done. Forest health is a very multifaceted issue, but there are instances where clearcutting is used for a forest's health (as I mentioned somewhere earlier, for example in a sanitation harvest). I'm not saying that the point of cutting down trees isn't to make a profit, I'm saying that clearcutting is not used solely to "destroy ecosystems" (again, at least in regulated responsible societies). It's more of a necessary evil, unfortunately. Minnecologiest,c 21:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Clearcutting is most often used to replace primary successional species with other or the same primary successional species It's sentences like these that I see a problem with. It almost sounds like clearing-cutting is used for the health of the forest. While I'm sure that is the intention in some cases, in general if you really care about the health of a forest you don't take heavy machinery in there and chop down most of the trees. The other problem is that it's purely from a forester's perspective, we also have to factor in the logging industry. They don't spend millions chopping down all those trees so that new trees may grow, they chop down all those trees to harvest them and make a profit. --Calibas (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really agree that "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one." is extreme. How about changing the pejorative word 'destroy' and say "Clear-cutting is used to replace the original ecosystem with another, more profitable one." ? --Kleinzach 03:31, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- "[Clearcutting] is used by foresters to create certain types of forest ecosystems and to promote select species that require an abundance of sunlight or grow in large, even-age stands" is the same as "Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it [with another]" just with a totally positive spin on it. If you're creating a new ecosystem you must be destroying the one that came before it. Also, is not the main reason for clear-cutting almost entirely economic? This article makes it seem like greed never factors into any decision to clearcut. They do sell the wood, right? And then replace it with other species that grow faster in the sun and hence produce more wood and create more profits? Clear-cutting is used to destroy one ecosystem and replace it with a more profitable one. is not an extreme viewpoint, it's the truth plainly stated. I'm not suggesting putting it in the article though, I know how Wikipedia bureaucracy works well enough to not bother with that. --Calibas (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
OK. My view is that the lead marginalizes the anti-clearcutting perspective which is left to the last sentence. The first sentence includes the word 'harvest'. The next two are positive. Only the last one is negative. It also implies that there are no forestry objections to clear cutting, which is untrue. The third sentence is a bit weasely: 'in some countries' , also unreferenced. Maybe it's better just to cut it out - also remove the word 'harvest' from the first sentence since it isn't always done in harvesting. How about that?
Obviously we've started off with some bad text here, so it isn't easy, but getting the lead right is essential to the balance of the whole thing.--Kleinzach 15:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- By the second of the two positive are you referring to "Logging companies and forest-worker unions in some countries support the practice for scientific, safety, and economic reasons."? Minnecologiest,c 19:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- No. "Logging companies . . . ." is the third sentence. (The second sentence is not a problem in my view.) --Kleinzach 23:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree the article needs a heavy revision. Division into negative/positive sections represents an incredibly flawed worldview (early snowmelt can lead to drought, yet it's in "positive"). Perhaps we should chop the article into the different perspectives on clearcutting. "Forestry Uses" "Logging Industry" "Public Opinion" and "Ecological Effects". Not necessarily in that order. --Calibas (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that would be a more intelligent approach. Do you have the sources to have a go at that? --Kleinzach 00:01, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
I am a university student, planning on doing some edits to this page. I am taking a outlook to the negative implements clear cutting has for example the amazon and relating it to a global weather scale of changes. I will be submitting this to the negative part of clear cutting just to give information while staying away from bias interactions. Edits include: The results of clearcutting are not only felt in the immediate area. Clearcutting also has an impact on the quality of the atmosphere, beginning when the trees are cut down. Trees help to filter pollutants from the air, and are also an important part of the carbon cycle. Removing trees has a direct impact on the environment, especially when combined with slash-and-burn practices which result in scorched earth and in a serious increase of environmental pollutants. (http://www.wisegeek.com/why-is-clearcutting-bad-for-the-environment.htm)
Also including some positive implications such as: Farmers cut forests to provide more room for planting crops or grazing livestock. Often many small farmers will each clear a few acres to feed their families by cutting down trees and burning them in a process known as “slash and burn” agriculture. Logging operations, which provide the world’s wood and paper products. (http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/deforestation-overview/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AJSingh31 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC) I am also participating in the editing of the Clearcutting page with AJSingh31. Here are some additional links that I have found to will help give a better idea of Clearcutting and other pros and cons about Clearcutting: http://oregonforests.org/content/clearcutting http://forestry.about.com/od/forestresourceinformation/i/clearcut_issue_2.htm http://www.sfmcanada.org/english/topics-harvesting.asp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sibs62 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Clear Definition
[edit]From my understanding, clearcutting itself simply means to remove most or all of the trees, with or without any regard for sustainability or regrowth. The silvicultural practice of clearcutting is clearcutting, but with a plan in place to restore the forest afterward. We might want to make a distinction, as both types are still practiced on the Planet today. It should be mentioned that clear cutting without any regard for restoration goes against everything forestry is about (though not the lumber industry). --Calibas (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- In many places clearcutting is followed by abandonment of the land - for lack of money to spend on replanting. This certainly happens here in Japan. --Kleinzach 01:15, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- Calibas gets it- clearcutting without regards to restoration or replanting is deforestation (means and ends). The article needs to make the distinction. Minnecologiest,c 14:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but Greenpeace, for example, and many other people simply call the destructive practice 'clearcutting'. This article should include that general definition as well as ones that may be more technical. --Kleinzach 14:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't object to the inclusion of clearcutting's more general definition, but I think the distinction between it and the technical definition should be very pronounced. Speaking of Greenpeace- googling "Greenpeace clearcutting" (one word or two) is coming up with basically nothing as far as an actual definition or report. Are you aware of the existence of anything of the sort? Minnecologiest,c 20:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Given the encyclopedia's approach it's essential we do include general definitions. We are not writing a 'Forester's handbook'. Re Greenpeace, try this about the 'Golden chain saw' award. That's a fairly typical usage. --Kleinzach 00:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- From here: "Wikipedia is, first and foremost, an encyclopedia, and as such, its primary goal is to be a fully comprehensive and informative reference work". Read: Not, suppress legitimate information that can be presented in a user-friendly manner because it's to the personal distaste of a particular editor. Minnecologiest,c 21:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. I do not think information should be suppressed. This works both ways. Pro-clearcutting information should not be suppressed. Ant-clearcutting information should not be suppressed. Given the nature of the controversy both sides will define 'clearcutting' differently. That's implicit and should be recognized in the article. --Kleinzach 02:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- From here: "Wikipedia is, first and foremost, an encyclopedia, and as such, its primary goal is to be a fully comprehensive and informative reference work". Read: Not, suppress legitimate information that can be presented in a user-friendly manner because it's to the personal distaste of a particular editor. Minnecologiest,c 21:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Given the encyclopedia's approach it's essential we do include general definitions. We are not writing a 'Forester's handbook'. Re Greenpeace, try this about the 'Golden chain saw' award. That's a fairly typical usage. --Kleinzach 00:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't object to the inclusion of clearcutting's more general definition, but I think the distinction between it and the technical definition should be very pronounced. Speaking of Greenpeace- googling "Greenpeace clearcutting" (one word or two) is coming up with basically nothing as far as an actual definition or report. Are you aware of the existence of anything of the sort? Minnecologiest,c 20:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but Greenpeace, for example, and many other people simply call the destructive practice 'clearcutting'. This article should include that general definition as well as ones that may be more technical. --Kleinzach 14:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Calibas gets it- clearcutting without regards to restoration or replanting is deforestation (means and ends). The article needs to make the distinction. Minnecologiest,c 14:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
One is motivated by money and is trying to influence the article to that end. The other doesn't. Two positions are not comparable merely because they are in opposition. Information is facts, not spin-doctoring and broad generalizations. If you believe that clearcutting has ever produced positive results then please cite your evidence, as there seems to be none to that effect in the pro-clearcutting materials. There seem to be no facts, only vague generalizations about unspecified "forestry experts". 108.7.7.173 (talk) 04:35, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
It's still basically pro-deforestation propaganda, which was obvious even to me after reading the first few paragraphs and I am merely an interested layman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.216.155 (talk) 10:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I would like to point out that clearcutting only has one definition and that is "to fell all the trees in (a section of forest) for harvesting."-[1] The other type of "clearcutting" that is being brought up is actually deforestation which is when no plan is in place for replanting. Anything with the term "clearcut" actually has a replanting plan. I can bring many actual facts forward that prove that clearcutting is actually beneficial to the environment but I believe that it is the other side of the argument that needs to bring forth physical evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.237.16.79 (talk) 15:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Environment
[edit]I understand that the recent additions to the article and especially the section on Environment are emanating from a college project so I am loath to intervene at present. However, there are many sweeping statement that have yet to be substantiated by reliable references and the use of Greeniacs articles as source references is not going to stand up to scrutiny. Wikipedia needs something more robust and authoritative than that. There is lots of published material around not only about the environmental impacts but also about mitigating strategies and working methods. It may be worth recording also that removal of mono-culture conifer plantations may allow re-development of broad=leaf woodland which in turn may reduce the impact of acidification of local watercourses. Velella Velella Talk 10:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Peer Review
[edit]Hello, I have chosen your article for the ANTH 2501 peer review! While reading your article, I noticed that there are a few areas in which you could improve. For instance, you mention deforestation in the Amazon and how much land has been cleared, but what are the effects on biodiversity or the Indigenous Peoples, or even the state of the planet? There's a lot of information and interesting topics which you could explore, and even create new sections on. Also, keep in mind of the projects requirements: 2 new sections, at least 5 quality sources, external links, making sure that it links to other articles and vice versa...looking back on your wiki history I saw that only one section has been added...You may also want to consider using more academic sources like journals or books, they are FULL of great information, and would contain relevant topics relating to your article! One last thing to mention, there are a few grammatical errors, and some sentences are missing citations where they should be... I hope this helps! Best of luck with the rest of your project! Kinloch21 (talk) 04:00, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
We did not want to go into to much information of the Amazon and the effects on biodiversity or the indigenous peoples due to bias claims that were mentioned above in the talk page. We also did add 2 sections ( clearcutting and the effects on wildlife, environment). We also edited the entire aspect of the article giving more information to the other sections. We also did add many articles and 2 external links. AJSingh31 (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Unexplained neutrality cleanup template
[edit]User:Duende8 added a neutrality warning to this article for reasons that are not clear. There does not appear to be any recent discussion about this issue on the talk page. Does anyone know why this cleanup tag was added? Jarble (talk) 04:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Duende8 made only the one edit (as above) and didn't start a discussion. Neutrality and similar templates should be accompanied by an explanation on the article talk page. Consequently, I removed it. Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:37, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Antonym
[edit]What is the opposite of this where instead of cutting all trees they only pick out certain trees and just cut them but leave the ones around it?
I tried to find it here but didn't see it mentioned. Ranze (talk) 20:48, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- You're right it should be mentioned. Have a look at Selection cutting or Continuous cover forestry and consider adding a sentence here to balance the article. Regards Velella Velella Talk 20:54, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
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Environmental Injustice Section
[edit]This section does not seem to fit with the rest of the article - it reads more like a personal essay than an academic encyclopedia entry. Not being an expert on the subject, Black Feminist Theory and the social identities that loggers hold might indeed be important information in understanding lumber industry practices, however even so, it could benefit from being rewritten in a more academic manner. Relayer2112 (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, as a passer by I also was surprised as how did we end up into a discussion about loggers identities when the article is about clear cuts. And it totally reads as an opinion/speculation. Maybe this part belongs in general somewhere else? --77.246.203.98 (talk) 07:25, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
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