Talk:Cross-country skiing trail

Terminology

I note with interest the differences in terminology between British and North American English. For example, in New England we say "track setting" not "track cutting," "trail network" and not "loipe plan" and "trail groomer" not "piste basher." How should we handle this? The terminology here looks very odd to this North American. Are there similar mismatches in terminology at Cross-country skiing? Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 00:00, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I see that this is a direct translation of the German article and that appears to explain its non-idiomatic choice of terms. I will take this as a basis on which to be bold and convert terms and lose the derivation of the non-standard term, Loipe, which makes sense in German, but not English.User:HopsonRoad 14:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Let's take care not to rush into this. It is translated from German, but I am an English-speaker and cross-country skier. Some of the differences you highlight may just be N American v. European usage, but I'll do some further research into terminology. --Bermicourt (talk) 15:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I've researched google books and can confirm that loipe is used in English sources as a loanword and I've added a some example references. I've replaced "loipe plan" with "track network" and "piste basher" with the more technical and neutral "piste machine." "Track setting" appears a common phrase but "track cutting" is also used - in British and US sources - so I've added "set" in a couple of places. I think track setting may have a slightly different meaning as well i.e. laying out the overall track, not just the physical machining of the snow. Something to be further investigated in due course. Hope that helps anyway.

--Bermicourt (talk) 16:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging in this, Bermicourt. A few thoughts: "trail network" would seem preferable to "track network," because trails (the subject of the article) can have both tracks for classic skiing and smooth surfaces (called "lanes") for skaters. A trail network might not be groomed or tracked at all. "Setting" a track, to my mind, is to a standard, typically by machine, whereas "tracking" can refer simply to the passage of skiers. So, I would suggest "there are trails of regional importance that are routinely tracked by volunteers in this way." I'll try to look at some FIS, Canadian and USSA manuals on course preparation for more definitive terminology. Thank you for the references, I'll look at those, too, and put them into Wikipedia:Citation templates form.

As to North American vs. European usage, I would give weight only to those European countries where English is the native language and not let German or Scandinavian terminology trump English usage. The references that you cite typically are explaining to English speakers what Loipe means in non-English-speakiing countries. Do you know of anyplace in the English-speaking world where signs would direct you to the "loipe"? Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 20:22, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

FIS terminology

See:

• FIS Cross-Country Committee (2012). "Cross-country homologation manual" (PDF) (6 ed.). International Ski Federation. Retrieved 2014-11-08.
• USSA (2004). "USSA Cross-Country Technical Handbook" (PDF). U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association. Retrieved 2014-11-09.
• Thomson, Jim (editor) (November 2009). "Cross Country Canada officials manual". Version 3.4. Cross Country Canada. Retrieved 2014-11-09. {{cite web}}: |first= has generic name (help)

These manuals use:

• "Set tracks," not "cut."
• "Trails" or "courses," never "loipe."
• "grooming machines," not "piste machine."

User:HopsonRoad 21:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry I meant to "trail network" in the first place! Just amended that one - thanks for spotting it. I've also changed piste machine to snow groomer as that seems to be used everywhere too.
• I've also replaced the use of "set" when describing volunteers prepping the trail as you say "set" implies machine-made.
• I only looked up loipe in English sources and it's use appears to be fairly widespread. I think because most cross-country skiing in Europe takes place in Norway and Central (German-speaking) Europe where loipe is the common name, English language sources covering those regions seem to have adopted the term too, often without any explanation, i.e. they assume the reader knows it. Of course, there's no reason why US/Canadian books or manuals would use loipe because their focus will be on the (wonderful and plentiful) skiing facilities in North America. Bermicourt (talk) 21:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding on this, Bermicourt. I would advocate for turning the etymology of "loipe" into a footnote. I don't feel that it deserves a section. Note that it's not in the Euro-centric FIS lexicon, either. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 22:03, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

That's okay. I've just created an article on snow groomers which I'd appreciate your comments on. Seems "snow groomer" is used in Europe - even in Scotland - as well as N America! Bermicourt (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Citations needed

I notice that non-English WP articles often have no or few citations from reliable sources. I'm afraid that's true for the German article whence this came, as well. (Although I've added three of the six citations there, myself.) It's not easy to find citations on this subject, which makes it perhaps one of questionable notability. However, I think that we can dig a little deeper. In the meantime, I've put a "needs additional citations for verification" tag. User:HopsonRoad 04:29, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

German controversy on trail fees

I don't feel that a question of whether to charge trail fees in Germany is sufficiently notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. See this article, which appears to be a blog. If it's notable, I suggest using the Quelle cited. User:HopsonRoad 00:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

N.B. I did have the Trail Fees section tagged for several days before I looked for one in vain to support the material. The recently given citation (above) doesn't support the statement, " In Germany, attempts to introduce fees have failed due to a lack of public acceptance and constitutional objections. In some places ski cl|ubs ask for donations boxes in order to support the maintenance of the trails." We learn of a discussion of trail fees being introduced gradually (not in vain) in one particular area and nothing to suggest that it's inconsistent with German law, only that fees might affect tourism. What might rise to the level of notability is how the costs of grooming trails are funded, world-wide, e.g. through taxes or with fees. Discussing one particular country's practices is too narrow for an encyclopedic entry. User:HopsonRoad 03:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

If you live in Europe, Germany is one of the major skiing countries, so people here might be interested. And not everything on Wikipedia has to be cited or removed. I looked at several articles about the charging issue in Germany and one even quoted Baden-Württemberg laws on freedom to roam. But frankly I haven't got the time to go chasing references on behalf of German Wikipedia editors. I'm just a translator who thought this would make a useful basis for an article.--Bermicourt (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts and hard work, Bermicourt. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources says, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered." I feel that this topic may be of interest to readers of German Wikipedia, but less so to English speakers. It seems narrow enough that even English-speaking readers in CH or ÖS would find it both parochial and fleeting, not of the lasting interest appropriate for an encyclopedia. I would want the citation to at least support the assertion, notable or not. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 12:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

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