Talk:Domnus Apostolicus

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Published translations of term

The term domnum apostolicum was translated, through the 1950s, as apostolic prelate in the Litany of the Saints:

"preserve our Apostolic Prelate, and all orders of the Church in holy religion".[1][2]

But is translated, since at least Pope John XXIII's 1959 encyclical Grata recordatio, as pope in the Litany of the Saints:

"preserve in holy religion the Pope and all orders of the ecclesiastical hierarchy".[3]

"preserve in holy religion the Pope, and all clerics in holy orders".[4][5]

–BoBoMisiu (talk) 17:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Apostolic prelate" is a literal translation of domnum apostolicum (though not the only possible literal translation). In the encyclical Grata recordatio, the Italian text (presumably what Pope John XXIII actually wrote, and so the original text) has "Proteggi il papa, i vescovi e tutti i ministri dell'evangelo, noi ti preghiamo, ascoltaci, Signore!", obviously the basis for the English text (and for the Portuguese and Spanish versions). The Latin text of the encyclical (strictly speaking, the only official text) has the actual text of the litany of the saints (with Domnum Apostolicum, not Papam), as has the 1962 Roman Missal issued by John XXIII three years after the encyclical. Translations of encyclicals and the like are made from the original text, while the Latin text is still being prepared and not yet available. There are many cases in which discrepancies are later discovered between the modern-language version and the official text. A notable case concerned Pope John XXIII's Mater et magister. But the Latin text was/is the official one. As for the text of the prayer in the 1959 (pre-Vatican II) encyclical, there was as yet no official vernacular translation, Italian or English. Theodoxa (talk) 20:48, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Theodoxa: the article is about term domnum apostolicum, i.e. the meaning of the term in English. There are published English translations that show a mid 20th century shift in meaning. The official-language text vs modern-language text argument doesn't work since the 20th century published sense-for-sense English translations (in missals with an nihil obstat & imprimatur such as the 1943 Kenedy that I own, in Catholic Encyclopedia, on vatican.va, etc.) use apostolic prelate and later pope as synonymous with domnum apostolicum. The article should describe both the sense-for-sense meaning and the literal translation, e.g. the litany of the saints has two Latin citations (1920 typ. and 1962 typ.) but not the published English translation. I do understand what you are saying – it reminds me of the missing spiritu in the previous over-simplified-English "and also with you" translation of et cum spiritu tuo vs the literal "and with your spirit". –BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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