Talk:Don Quixote (Kennedy Center sculpture)

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Requested move 10 March 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Don Quixote (Kennedy Center sculpture) as an alternative title. Users raised concerns with the proposed title on the grounds that the work is not the only statue of Don Quixote in Washington, D.C., and lacks qualities of a "portrait" sculpture. Discussion seems to have reached a natural end. (non-admin closure) Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don Quixote (Teno) → Statue of Don Quixote (Washington, D.C.) – WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says: "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better." --Another Believer _(Talk) 13:21, 10 March 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for several reasons. The true name of the statue is Don Quixote, so as a named work of art the title should remain. Per common name. As a gift from Spain to the United States for the 1976 bicentennial it has historical international connotations. The subject is fictional, not a portrait statue. It is an action statue not a portrait statue, and in portraying the dramatic charge of a horse and rider emerging from stone the sculptor presents a creative nonliteral equestrian representation. As I mentioned during the discussion about these titles, my concern was that exceptional works of visual art such as this one would be changed from real names to bland descriptors, and that if the line is moved so far now then at some point, even years in the future, editors will extend this renaming style to paintings. Renaming a story-telling action statue such as this, although in good faith, seems to extend that envelope. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Necrothesp, wondering if you read my above comment as you ivoted on the RM's. This is not a portrait sculpture, or even a sculpture of an individual. It is an named artistic action sculpture of a fictional character. Would you please give further comment on your reasoning here, and possibly read the page, nom, and comments and study this one further. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:50, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still a statue. Still applies. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Necrothesp, it is a statue. But not a portrait statue. The Portrait article begins "A portrait is a painting, photograph, sculpture, or other artistic representation of a person, in which the face and its expression is predominant". Another Believer, can you take another look at this, maybe it can be reconsidered. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't see the logic in making an exception for fictional subjects. At the end of the day, the proposed title is the best and least ambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:04, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My logic is because it is not a portrait statue, and is a named work of art, as mentioned and linked above and per the image and text. So the guideline does not apply (or am I tilting against windmills? sorry, couldn't resist). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, I would consider the subject a portrait statue as well. I mean, his full body is not shown, but similar to Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial. I don't think exceptions for fictional subjects is necessary. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But zoom in and check out his face, it's covered by armor. So not even a portrait (unless a portrait of the horse). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:36, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That may be, but the point is that "Don Quixote (Teno)" is meaningless to the average reader and "Statue of Don Quixote (Washington, D.C.)" is blatantly obvious. The latter is therefore clearly the best title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:50, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then you are actually not supporting it per the nom, which is solely about a portrait sculpture. Which this one isn't. It's a statue, an artwork, which has a real name. Works of art on Wikipedia regularly use the artist's name as a disamb., not a confusing or out-of-the-ordinary concept for Wikipedia readers searching a topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (sorry). From List of public art in Washington, D.C., Ward 2 it seems that there's another statue of Quixote in Washington, by Stafford Rolph, so Statue of Don Quixote (Washington, D.C.) wouldn't satisfy WP:PRECISE. Ham II (talk) 16:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How about Statue of Don Quixote (Kennedy Center) then? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:50, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Necrothesp, I'd be fine with this title, if User:Ham II agrees. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Equestrian statue of Don Quixote (Teno) would follow VAMOS more closely; there appears to be another version in Buenos Aires. Ham II (talk) 08:54, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This page doesn't comply with VAMOS because it is not a portrait sculpture. See Portrait. A portrait painting or sculpture is defined by the face of the person depicted ("A portrait is a painting, photograph, sculpture, or other artistic representation of a person, in which the face and its expression is predominant") and this one just doesn't fit. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:23, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since I'm being more involved with this one I should explain a bit more. Aside from my theory that this is not a portrait statue because you can't see his face, it seems an action, story-telling statue of Quixote and not an equestrian portrait. When Quixote and his horse Rocinante heroically emerge out of solid rock to confront and take on an imaginary foe, to me the statue shouts its title, Don Quixote. An ! following the name almost seems implied. But how about the now red-linked name Don Quixote (Kennedy Center statue) as a consensus compromise? That keeps the name with its power-of-art-piece italics, and yet tells readers that it's a statue and they could learn who the sculptor was in the lead. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:41, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For what it is worth, the Teno sculpture of Don Quixote in Buenos Aires is similar but different (the subject is wielding a sword, not a lance, for example: I can't seem to link directly, but see the "Quijotes" under "Esculturas" at http://aurelioteno.es/ ).
In Spanish, they appear to be called "Homenaje al Quijote" (Tribute to Don Quixote) or "Monumento al Quijote" (Don Quixote Monument). But we'd probably still need the parenthetical "(Kennedy Center)" because there are lots of sculptures of Don Quixote around, including at least one more in DC, so "Tribute" and "Monument" don't help much.
Given the figures bursting from the rock, I'm not convinced this is figurative enough to be a statue, but it is certainly a sculpture. So that suggests something like Don Quixote (Kennedy Center sculpture) could work, if that won't breach too many of our self-imposed guidelines. Theramin (talk) 00:12, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm persuaded by the arguments that Don Quixote should be kept italicised, and that this work isn't figurative enough for the "Equestrian statue of [...]" style. Thanks for the link to the artist's official website, Theramin – it's much clearer from that that the Buenos Aires and Washington statues are different compositions. I think Don Quixote (Kennedy Center sculpture) is the way to go. Ham II (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Surprised this was relisted, Don Quixote (Kennedy Center sculpture) seems to be the consensus after the flow of the discussion. I've left a note at the relisters page. Another Believer, seem okay with you? Randy Kryn (talk) 19:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.