Talk:Durmstrang

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This article was nominated for deletion on 15 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

While Durmstrang does have extensive grounds, couldn't they still be connected to the sea in some way? I mean, the way the students of Durmstrang arrived at Hogwarts was by Boat, so isn't it possible?

I don't want to be edit happy, but I'll delete the "suggesting it is far from the sea" bit after the it says that Durmstrang has extensive grounds. Feel free to re-add it if you feel you have sufficient reasoning for doing so.

Speculation

This article is largely speculative. Unless someone can provide a cite for the following points I will remove them in one week:

The language of teaching is German
The location is far north

Extrapolating a location from the described costumes of the students is unavoidably speculative, and violates WP:NOR. --DDG 19:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I largely agree, see my comments interspersed in the text. I would like to see your version discussed here first, however. --Ghirla | talk 08:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The language of teaching is most probably not German (I'd say Russian, see a map for possible locations of the schools next to this text. Krum tells Hermione that the castle is in a place where winter days are very short, therfore they must be quite close to the arctic circle, which means quite far North. Also all the names and accents of the Durmstrang people are Slavic, not Germanic Lag 21:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of anything that gives away the language at Durmstrang in the books aside from the German origin of the name. I do know there are still German-language schools in Baltic states (and if it really was founded in the 13th century it would correspond to the Teutonic Knights activities in Christianizing Eastern Europe), but there's no way to know without asking Rowling. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'tsigeika' coats

One of the lines reads that the movie shows the durmstang students wearing Russian ushankas and tsigeika coats. What is a tsigeika coat? I've googled it, to no avail. I've searched Wikipedia... is this legit? // visitor

I checked with someone from the area, and he confirmed that this is a kind of coat. It might be an issue of transliteration. Anyone with more info, please respond. Phi*n!x 15:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard the expression "tsigeika" for that long fur-collared coat before, but have no idea how it is actually spelled. They are different from boyar coats, which often have fur collars but are much fancier. I have scoured google in vain. --Bluejay Young 12:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Self-contradiction?

The third paragraph of the "Uniform and Study" section says that the idea that Durmstrang filters its students based on bloodline is speculative. However, the next section assumes it to be true (end of 2nd Paragraph). I will change the latter within then next week unless anyone thinks otherwise. Phi*n!x 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it. Change it back or reword it if you have good reason to. Phi*n!x 16:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's another: "...Hermione, who is Muggle-born and would not have been admitted at his school."

—wwoods 17:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good call. I just tried to fix that one, but it may need some work. Phi*n!x 18:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

location

Woulden't the school have to be somewhere in Bulgaria because Krum is on the Bulgaria national Quidich team?

No- it probably does mean that Krum is from Bulgaria, but Durmstrang is almost certainly an international school that covers many countries in Eastern Europe. See the "Location" section of this article for an explanation of why Durmstrang is probably not in Bulgaria based on climate indicators.Phi*n!x 17:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What should the location in the userbox say then? Something like "Unspecified European location"? --BrokenSphere 03:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

The photo used is too dark. Does anyone have a picture in which we can actually see the content? Michael 05:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am the uploader, and I can see the picture pretty well on my screen. I spent a while looking through the Durmstrang opening in the GoF movie trying to find the best shot, and this is what I came up with. That being said, I would use a basic image editor to brighten the picture, but I am pretty sure that it violates copyright law to edit a copyrighted image. --Phi*n!x 20:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I watched the movie again and found a better image, which I now posted. An admin might want to delete the one I posted before. --Phi*n!x 16:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm...Was it actually seen in the movie? Michael 08:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blazon

I have seen an image of the Durmstrang blazon (crest) in locations such as a Hot Topic T-Shirt. Does anyone know if this is official in any way and if we might find some fair use rationale to post it in the infobox? -Phi*n!x 21:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I got a good look at it tonight while viewing some trailers. It is the double-eagle crest of Imperial Russia and should be very easy to obtain. The slight suspicion in which Rowling suggests we are to hold Durmstrang (do they study the Dark Arts there?) and nearly everything about their portrayal in the film strongly suggests both the Soviet Union and post-Cold War Russia with its uneasy alliances with the West. Having sat through eight U.S.-vs-U.S.S.R. Olympiads, I wondered what was missing in the Quidditch scene at the beginning and realized I was looking for "CCCP". Some things about film-Durmstrang also seem quite German; the school's name, the quasi-military march with which the boys enter the hall, their very short haircuts. Old Russia had kind of a love-hate relationship with Germany; there were periods where the two countries got along and had cultural exchange, and many Russian royals married German nobility (Queen Alexandra was German) but they also fought Germany on many occasions. --Bluejay Young 12:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name

I was wondering, could it be that the name Durmstrang comes from Sturm und Drang. Sturm und Drang was a movement in German literature and music taking place from the late 1760s through the early 1780s, influenced e.g. by Goethe, Mozart and Haydn. It means "storm and urge," or "storm and impulse", which in my opinion fits the schools image quite nicely.

Yes, and the article mentions this already. -Phi*n!x 01:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In-universe

I have tried my best to preserve the content of the article while making the wording less in-universe. Input would be appreciated. -Phi*n!x 01:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

TfD nomination of Template:HP School

Template:HP School has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Fbv65e del / ☑t / ☛c || 21:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Location, location, location

Another editor and I are having a bit of an edit war over the location of Durmstrang. As anyone who has read the books knows, the location of the school is never given. Third opinions would be much appreciated. :) faithless (^speak) 13:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, it's never given. To be honest, I always got the impression it was in Bulgaria. Will ^(talk) 14:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input. :) I can see why you would think that, but isn't Bulgaris rather warm for heavy furs? I don't know, I've never been there, but I think it's just above Greece and Turkey, which makes me imagine it's rather warm. I've always kind of imagined it not really being in any country, but rather somewhere around the north pole. But the point is, we just don't know. :) faithless (^speak) 14:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(reprinted from Faith's user page, where it got a tad heated there betwixt him and someone else):

Well, let's look at this argument from a different angle. I have worn ushankas and Tsigeica coats. Does this make me Russian? If so, my grandpappy will likely disown me, thieving, ex-commie bastard I (apparently) now am. Clearly, the answer is: OF COURSE NOT! Clothes do not specify nationality any more than hairstyles do, And by the way, you are making an assumption by placing Beaubatons in France. Is France the only place in Europe where they speak French, or have French accents and French names? Think hard, now. Omg! Such a sitation exists in at least x other countries: Switzerland, Canada, Luxeumbourg, Monaco, Belgium....and Russia. (yes, Russian folk are taught to speak a language fluently; one of the reasons why their language schools are considered amongst the best in the world, and yes, I am leaving off Haiti, Tahiti, New Caledonia and Martinique, as it is reasonable to assume chicks from that neck of the woods would at least pic up a tan).

I think its best not to make any assumptions about the books. Don't fault the film's wardrobe folk for getting lazy. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's safe to say that Beauxbatons is south of Dijon, though. Will ^(talk) 16:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is? Wow. I've got to go there - there be hot chicks there, and this is pretty muych true, as not every gal can pull off wearing those hats, you know. Oh, by the way - you wouldn't happen to have, oh I don't know, a citation that says that, do you? We cannot include a mapquest directions without it. Does the Wizarding World use mapquest? hmmm. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involves a bit of synthesis - Maxime and Hagrid head south (so it looks to the Ministry like they're going to Beauxbatons), and they manage to give a ministry official "the slip around Dijon". Will ^(talk) 17:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is my personal belief that Beauxbatons is located along France's Mediterranean coast, most likely the city of Marseille. We see in GoF that Hogwarts serves bouillabaisse to the visiting students, a fish stew which originated in the port city and is rarely served anywhere else (I certainly have never had it, though I am a vegetarian). Still, that's the best "proof" there is, and that ain't no proof. faithless (^speak) 06:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've had bouillabaisse before - just 2 weeks ago, in fact - and I was nowhere near the south of France when the meal took place. Do you think that perhaps you are making an error here? Might it not be possible that the wizarding world might have some sort of food distribution and preservation network that might approximate the shipping of foodstuffs and preservation/refrigeration of said foodstuffs? As Ayn Rand wrote in Atlas Shrugged, "When faced with a logical paradox, check your assumptions; you will always find that at least one of them is in error." I think its an apt application in this case. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question for Arcayne: In this edit you applied citation needed tags on two statements:

"It is not stated whether this is an actual school tradition, or a consequence of the former headmaster Igor Karkaroff being a Death Eater, serving the dark wizard Lord Voldemort."
"It is unknown whether he is telling the truth, and if he is, whether it is Karkaroff's policy, or a general policy of the school."

Please understand that I am in 100% agreement that claims of non-obvious fact need to cite sources, but I am not sure it is even possible to do in these cases. In the first, one cannot prove a negative statement "It is not stated whether..." with a source citation, we could only hope to disprove it by providing such a sourced claim. It is claimed to be not stated anywhere, and we cannot definitively prove it was not, only that perhaps it was (and in which case the premise would be false and the statement falls). We can only provide a source citation, in principle, if it was stated by a (reliable) source that it was not stated, and that is also a non-starter. Similarly, in the second statement, "It is unknown whether..." also cannot be proven or cited with a source, only perhaps disproven if a source is produced which contradicts it. What we have here are requests for citations that are by definition practically and logically impossible to fulfill, for all intents and purposes, therefore they are moot and should be speedily removed in my opinion. Or perhaps the disputed text could be modified in some way so that a citation needed tag is appropriate, or the text should just be removed altogether as irrelevant fancrufting, weasel wording, and quasi-speculation (which i think was the real reason for the citation needed tag, if I may say so while still assuming good faith...). --T-dot ( ^Talk/contribs ) 18:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Three things motivated my decision to use cn tags instead of outright purging. 1. I had just flushed a good portion of the article as useless cruft, I thought that stuff having half a chance at citation should just be tagged. 2. I'd kinda like to see the info cited, if its possible, as it would provide some nice texture to the article. 3. My information about the novels is imperfect. Maybe it had come up at one point.

However, cruft is cruft. If you wished, you could dump it now. I was planning on waiting a month and doing it myself, if no reliably sourced citations come up. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]