Talk:Eparchy of Marča

Forgery

After the Ottoman capture of Smederevo fortress in 1459 and fall of Bosnia 1463 different populations of Orthodox Christians moved into Syrmia and by 1483 perhaps 200,000 Orthodox Christians moved into central Slavonia and Syrmia This information is from the sources This information is based on Serbian sources that talk about 200,000 Orthodox Serbs which coming from Serbia or Bosnia to Croatia ie Slavonia. The original document says the following I quote: "Tvrdnja kralja Matije Korvina iz 1461. godine jest da su Turci samo u posljednje tri godine "odveli 200.000 duša u ropstvo.. King Matthew Corvin's claim of 1461 is that in the last three years alone, the Turks "have taken 200,000 souls into slavery (from Hungary towards Turkey). This forgery was transmitted by Serbian historians and is now transmitted by foreign historians. For this reason, I suggest deleting this information from the article.Mikola22 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I object. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

@Antidiskriminator: This information does not exist. Foreign historians(RS) cite Serbian sources(book) and historical data (200,000 Orthodox Christians) which do not exist. What does this have to do with secondary sources? They cite Serbian sources which talk about year 1483 and 200,000 Orthodox Serbs. There is no information from 1483 and 200,000 Orthodox Serbs who coming to Hungary ie central Slavonia. During these years 200,000 Hungarians or people from that area going in the opposite direction they are captured and heading for Turkey or that area. We must not continue to spread this false fact. Mikola22 (talk) 11:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The first groups of settlers were pushed northward by the Ottoman conquests of Serbia after the Battle of Smederevo in 1459 and the fall of Bosnia in 1463. Orthodox Christians moved into Srijem thereafter. By 1483, perhaps two hundred thousand had moved into central Slavonia and Srijem footnote 10. Radoslav Grujic, Apologija srpskoga naroda u Hrvatskoj i Slavoniji i njegovih glavnih obelezja; povodom Optuznice kr. drzav. odvjetnika u Zagrebu od 12. I. 1909 g. (Novi Sad: Stamparija uciteljskog deonicar. drutva Natoevic, 1909),(page 92-94). Nicholas J. Miller in his book (page 6) this information proves with book of Radoslav Grujic(Serbian historian) from year 1909. where Radoslav Grujic citing testimony of king Matija( Matthias Corvinus) and his non-existent letter from 1483 about "200,000 Serbs". This letter and data do not exist and transmitting that information is a forgery. Otherwise Radoslav Grujic with these non-existent letter proves arrival of Serbs to Srijem, Banat and Backa, while for Slavonia says that these Serbs(out "200,000 thousand" of them) were probably immigrated and to Slavonia. Mikola22 (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I see that you belong to a small group of editors who claim that works are not reliable if they are authored by people of wrong ethnicity (Serbs, Visigoths, spiders ...). I advise you to go to WP:RSN and gain consensus that works authored by people of wrong ethnicity are not reliable before you continue to push this kind of POV. Best regards.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Antidiskriminator: This is information from Serbian paper, in the same paper says that the Serbian academician Sima Ćirković pointed to this mistake used by Serbian historians. We cannot continue to use this information when it is fabricated. Let's respect fact that this information does not exist and let's listen advice of Serbian academician and stop transmitted this information. If it bothers you that I found more fake informations when it comes to the history of Serbs in Croatia then report me to the administrator. Unfortunately, it will be more such irregularities. The problem is that foreign historians have begun to transmitted this information. It is not my fault, my job here is to point out irregularities in the articles or we will continue to read fairy tales? Instead of deleting this information from article you invent some reasons and conspiracy theories( spiders, cyborgs, liliputans etc). Mikola22 (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, "If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, over 10 Serbian sources say that and probably 5,6 foreign sources use this information. But it is a forgery, this information does not exist. This is original information from the Hungarian archive "King Matthew Corvin's claim from 1461 is that in the last three years alone, the Turks "have taken 200,000 souls into slavery" This is Serbian forgery "A letter of King Matthias from 12 January 1483 mentions that 200,000 Serbs had settled the Hungarian kingdom in the last four yearsˇ". We cannot continue to promote this information about 200,000 Serbs or Orthodox Christians who also come to central Slavonia. I don't know how you don't understand it. Years were replaced, facts etc, and this is forgery. The Serbian source has nothing to do with the original Hungarian archive source. This information, which Serbian historians have put in their books, does not exist and this was pointed out by the Serbian academic, as well as this scientific work. Mikola22 (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I think I gave a clear explanation for my position which is grounded on wikipedia policies and I do not have anything to add to it. You are of course free to disagree, but I don't think you should expect everybody to be now somehow obliged to keep discussing this with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The Turks continued to raid border areas and take people away. Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus complained in a letter dated 1462 that during the previous three years, 200,000 people had been seized from his country. This is information from a book(The Serbs) of Serbian academician Sima Ćirković. He doesn't talk about 200,000 Serbs which 1483 migrate towards south Hungary or central Slavonia because he doesn't use this information "A letter of King Matthias from 12 January 1483 mentions that 200,000 Serbs had settled the Hungarian kingdom in the last four years" which is a forgery. We cannot continue to use this fact just for a reason because 10 other sources use this forgery fact. From scientific paper I quote: and this mistake is often repeated in historiography,.. Sima Ćirković pointed to this mistake; see: History of the Serbian People II, 431 Mikola22 (talk) 06:20, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Mikola22: The 200 000 figure is supported by two reliable sources. If modern scholars whose work has been published by reliable publishers such as Western universities say sth, we can not oppose that by interpreting primary sources/original documents. See WP:PRIMARY. On the source you found, Ivanov, I am not sure if it can be given the same weight as Miller and Frucht. What works by Ivanov have been published by reliable publishers? It seems that his work you cited is a PhD study or sth similar. In any case, the article says "perhaps", indicating that the figure is disputed. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

  @Ktrimi991: Academician Sima Ćirković pointed to this mistake; in his book History of the Serbian People II (page 431) and "Migration of the Serbian peoples to the Kingdom of Hungary in the 14th and 15th century (page 43) (види: Историја српског народа II, 431; Ћирковић, Сеобе српског народа у Краљевину Угарску у XIV и XV веку, 43.). Miller and Frucht have same conclusion but in the footnote Miller cite Serbian source proving this "fact" with non-existent letter from 1483. "perhaps" is certainly because this number of 200,000 is huge not because he quotes a forgery, if Miller and Frucht knew that this "fact" is forgery they wouldn't quote it or they would not reach such conclusion as the Serbian academician does not reach such conclusion. During scientific work of Sima Ćirković(until his death), Serbian historians transmitted this fact, although he pointed that these information was forgery. Population movements began in earnest after the Battle of Smederevo in 1459, and by 1483, up to two hundred thousand Orthodox Christians had moved into central Slavonia and Srijem (eastern Croatia) this is information from Frucht without information in the footnote. This means that from no existing letter (1483) and 200,000 thousands of Serbs which do not exist and who coming to Banat, Bačka and Srijem and probably into Slavonia(Serbian source), now(2020) we have fact on Wikipedia based on that Serbian source, nonexistent letter and falsified information about 200,000 Serbs who are no longer coming to Banat, Bačka and Srijem as the Serbian source claim, but now they come to central Slavonia and Srijem (eastern Croatia). There is no mention of this in the book(The Serbs,from 2004) of academician Sime Cirković because there is no such great migration to central Slavonia. Migration goes to Vojvodina and southern Hungary, see article "Great Migrations of the Serbs". Croatian historian Mirko Markovic in his book Slavonia(600 pages, from 2002) says that Serbs(massively) came to area(Slavonia) at the end of the 17th and at beginning of 18th century. This is during great migration of Serbs, he does not mention any 200,000 Serbs who would come to Slavonia in 15th century. This is history. Mikola22 (talk) 14:21, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

  Najave u gornjem pismu potvrđuju i neke od izjava samog kralja Matije, a još više i njegove politike u godinama koje dolaze, preokupirane oživljavanjem pustošnih područja. U pismu Mlečanima iz 1462. godine kralj se požalio da su Turci u protekle tri godine, odnosno od 1459. godine, iz njegove zemlje odveli više od 200.000 stanovnika. (Ovdje moram napomenuti da se zbog nesporazuma u staroj mađarskoj zbirci izvornika taj broj koristio kao upućivanje na stanovnike Srbije koji su se doselili u Mađarsku. preuzeo ga je Jireček, zatim Ivić, a kasnije mnogo puta ponovio, i teško i sporo će se ta greška ispraviti.)...translation: Academician Sima Ćirković book "Migration of the Serbian peoples to the Kingdom of Hungary in the 14th and 15th century" The announcements in the letter above confirm some of the statements made by King Matthew himself, and even more so his policies for years to come, preoccupied with the revival of devastated areas. In a letter to the Venetians of 1462, the king complained that the Turks had taken more than 200,000 inhabitants from his country in the past three years, or since 1459. (I must mention here that due to misunderstandings in the old Hungarian original collection, this number was used as a reference to the Serbs who immigrated to Hungary. It was taken by Konstantin Josef Jireček, then Aleksa Ivić, and repeated many times later, and this mistake it will hardly and slowly be corrected.)Mikola22 (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Weak rasoning, a lot of spamming and ignoring other editor's view, plus not going per basic Wiki rules (primary/seconday sources and WP:RSN). I object. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Information from outdated source

In 1642 Benedikt Vinković wrote a letter to emperor Ferdinand III to write a report about "Vlachs" (Orthodox Serbs).[1]

• We have problem with this information ie source, WP:AGE MATTERS, WP:VERIFY, posible and WP:OR. I suggest that this information be removed from the article. Mikola22 (talk) 14:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)