Talk:Frank Searle (businessman)

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A fact from Frank Searle (businessman) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 April 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Frank Searle designed the X-type and B-type bus, and was the Managing Director of Daimler Airway and Imperial Airways?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/April.

Wikipedia

WPs

I've added the above WPs because they are relevant, although it is not immediately apparent from the article. Searle was involved in a couple of companies manufacturing inner tubes for tyres and the LGOC. He served in the Tank Corps during WWI, rising to Lt. Col or Col (he was always referred to as Col. Searle post-war). He started Daimler Air Hire in 1919, which later became Daimler Airway and was absorbed into Imperial Airways, of which Searle became Chairman. He was also involved in BSA and Daimler Motor Co pre-war, and Daimler Motor Co and Rover post-war, apparently retiring in 1931. He died in 1948. Mjroots (talk) 17:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP Sussex changd to WP Kent as he was born in Kent. Mjroots (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lacunae

Searle took his deputy from Daimler Airway, Humphery, to do the same at Imperial Airways. Searle disappears from view about April 1925 when there was public commotion about noise from aircraft near their base and after the accident inquiries. He resurfaces in the 'recovery situation' at Rover in 1929. Then 1929/1930 Humphery is promoted to Managing director at Imperial Airways with no mention of Searle's departure.

After a world tour by Searle Rover begins assembly with lots of local content in both Australia and New Zealand in the early thirties, both efforts, I think, fail. What happened to Searle then? The ODNB writer does not know either. Eddaido (talk) 14:54, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any 1930s newspapers from Australia and New Zealand available online? These would likely be good sources for expanding the article. Mjroots (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something wrong

Just been having a look at the Census and records for Frank Searle and something is not right.

Frank - Worthing (Carpenter)

A Frank Searle that was born in 1875 in the East Preston district (which includes Worthing) he appears in the 1881 census at 74 High Street, Broadwater as a 5-year old with his parents George and Charlotte (his father is descibed as an Iron Moulder. (two brothers Jabez and Ernest and two sisters Minnie and Jessie.

In the 1901 census at 46 North Street, Worthing he is described as a 25-year old single Carpenter still with his parents George and Charlotte (his father described as a Pimp & Firewood Merchant and Mail Contractor).

In the 1911 census he is lving at Lyndhurst Road, Worthing and is described as a 35-year old Carpenter married to Maude and has one son Herbert.

Frank - London (Engine Fitter/Mechanical Engineer

A Frank Searle was born in the Greenwich district of London in 1874 Q4.

In the 1881 census of Deptford (282 new cross road) Frank Searle aged six, scholar, father Henry Searle a Draper and his wife Elizabeth.

In the 1891 census of Deptford (282 new cross road) Frank Searle aged 16 Steam Engine Fitters Apprentice, he appears to be living with his brothers Sydney C (26), Arthur (17) and sisters Bessia A (22) and Edith (19).

1897 Marriage in Greenwich district Frank Searle = Charlotte Louise Soyer

In the 1901 census of Lewisham at Perry Hill, Lewisham is a Charlotte L Searle with daughter Joan L (aged 2) and Mary (aged 1) and a son Geoffrey (2 months) , her husband doesnt appear to be at home.

In the 1911 census in North Finchley, Barnet is a Frank Searle a 36-year old Mechanical engineer born New Cross in London with his wife Charlotte Louis and two daughters Joan Louise (12) and Molly (11) and a son Richard Soyer (8).

1944 death in Bournemouth - Charlotte L Searle aged 68 1945 marriage in Bournemouth - Franke Searle = Alice F Ford

All original research but despite the ONDB I think we need some reliable references that this Frank Searle from Worthing who became a carpenter designed buses rather than the mechanical engineer from London. MilborneOne (talk) 18:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have made your case. You should write and tell the ODNB who will amend it (and in my experience very quickly). I'm going to change the article now but if a wiser party decides to revert me I will not dispute it. Eddaido (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I was wrong. He was born in 1874 and not 1875. - that'll teach me not to look on the talk page first! Eddaido, we should use your ODNB ref for the year and place of birth, but it will need renaming - say ODNB2. The census records are useable, and may be cited as sources. Mjroots (talk) 11:03, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you need the full refs for any of the census entries I can provide them. MilborneOne (talk) 11:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've now restored Eddaido's correct info, and changed a category accordingly. I've also changed one of the WPs due to the above info being discovered. Mjroots (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MilborneOne, expansion of the Personal section would be desirable. Anything you can add here would be appreciated. Mjroots (talk) 11:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I notice his son Geoffrey might have married in Coventry (near Rover) in 1932 and they had a son Geoffrey D registered in Warwick in the March quarter of 1939. 192.Com might turn him up! The DNB template you have re-used is faulty. It does not show the name of the writer of the article as requested by ODNB. I don't use the template just as a matter of personal taste but shouldn't it provide for this? Also I put up a new article the other day George Holt Thomas and am embarrassed because its name is in Italics. How did I DO that?? Please can it be fixed! Have been hoping someone would notice and fix. Am about to start on an article on Daimler Hire. Thanks etc Eddaido (talk) 11:38, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The {{cite web}} just needs the parameters |first=Theo |last=Barker adding to it. As MilborneOne is busy at the moment, it can be added when he's finished. Mjroots (talk) 12:34, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done Mjroots (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name Charlotte Louise Soyer suggests Searle may have found more in Paris than omnibuses. Eddaido (talk) 11:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Finished for now guys, Charlotte Louise Soyer was born in Woolwich in 1876. MilborneOne (talk) 13:09, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. There may be a Place Des All-Blacks but no Paris suburb labelled Blackheath . . . yet! Eddaido (talk) 07:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Added noteworthy well-sourced image of special Rover. Zap image of 10/25? Eddaido (talk) 22:34, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Balance

I understand the need to show the strenth of our conflict with ODNB's reports on Searle's origins but is our concern becoming just a little too prominent in the man's biography? If this text were put in a note it is still available to readers without obstructing the narrative. There is a big problem. Refs cannot be nested (you will understand what I mean, I don't) with an untidy result in the note. However I know I am in the company of distinguished gentlemen editors who are Bound to have a Wikipedian solution!?

My suggestion for the text of the note would be:

Searle appears in the 1881 census of Greenwich living with his parents and siblings at 282 New Cross Road in Deptford, he is described as a six-year old scholar.^[1] In the 1891 census Searle is still at 282 New Cross Road with his siblings and he is described as a 16-year old steam engine fitters apprentice.^[2]

Searle doesn't appear to be with his wife and family at the time of the 1901 census; his wife Charlotte is living at 112 Perry Hill in Lewisham with three children, Joan aged 2, Mary aged 1 and Geoffrey aged 2 months.^[3] In the 1911 census of Barnet, Hertfordshire, Searle and his wife, two daughters and a son Richard Soyer Searle are living in North Finchley, Searle is described as a mechanical engineer with the London and General Omnibus Company.^[4]

leaving in the main article: Searle was born in 1874 at Greenwich, (then in Kent), the son of draper Henry Searle and his wife Elizabeth (nee Croaker).^[5] In 1897 he married Charlotte Louise Soyer.^[6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddaido (talk • contribs) 02:51, 26 April 2011

I thought the information was relevant to the subject nothing to do with the ODNB - it is either relevant or not no need for notes. In my opinion it gives some usefull information to the reader. What might be better is to move the stuff out of the personal section and create an article with a proper time frame, at the moment it doesnt really flow as it is a bit fragmented by subject. As a biographical article it would be better to show the progress of the subject by time and some of the other detail in the article is probably better covered in the related company articles. Although it has some good stuff the structure of the article will cause problems if it is ever but forward for a review. MilborneOne (talk) 07:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've no objection to mass reorganisation of the article if it is felt that it would flow better. Deletion of relevant material is a different matter though, and I would object to that. By all means be WP:BOLD and reorganise the article. Mjroots (talk) 10:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ 1881 Census of Greenwich, RG11/716, Folio 13, Page 20, Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Son, Condition:Single, Age:6, Occupation:Scholar, Where Born:Deptford, Kent, Address:282 New Cross Road, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, Kent.
^ 1891 Census of Greenwich, RG12/499, Folio 57, Page 7, Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Brother, Condition:Single, Age:16, Occupation:Steam Engine Fitters Apprentice, Where Born:Deptford, Kent, Address:282 New Cross Road, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, Kent.
^ 1901 Census of Lewisham, RG13/561, Folio 79, Page 58 Name:Charlotte L Searle, Relation to Head:Wife, Condition:Married, Age:25, Occupation:None, Where Born:Blackheath, London, Address:"Morden", 112 Perry Hill, Lewisham, London.
^ 1911 Census of Barnet, RG14/7163, Schedule:99 Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Head, Condition:Married, Age:36, Occupation:Mechnical Engineer. Industry or Service: Lon Gen O'bus Co Ltd. Where Born:New Cross, London, Address:"Denewood", Holden Road, North Finchley, London.
^ Barker, Theo (2004). "Searle, Frank (1875–1948)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. Oxford University Press.
^ General Register Office index of marriages registered in September, October, December, 1897 - Name: Frank Searle & Charlotte Louise Soyer. District: Greenwich Volume: 1D Page: 1816.

[Census1881-1] 1881 Census of Greenwich, RG11/716, Folio 13, Page 20, Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Son, Condition:Single, Age:6, Occupation:Scholar, Where Born:Deptford, Kent, Address:282 New Cross Road, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, Kent.

[Census1891-2] 1891 Census of Greenwich, RG12/499, Folio 57, Page 7, Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Brother, Condition:Single, Age:16, Occupation:Steam Engine Fitters Apprentice, Where Born:Deptford, Kent, Address:282 New Cross Road, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, Kent.

[Census1901-3] 1901 Census of Lewisham, RG13/561, Folio 79, Page 58 Name:Charlotte L Searle, Relation to Head:Wife, Condition:Married, Age:25, Occupation:None, Where Born:Blackheath, London, Address:"Morden", 112 Perry Hill, Lewisham, London.

[Census1911-4] 1911 Census of Barnet, RG14/7163, Schedule:99 Name:Frank Searle, Relation to Head:Head, Condition:Married, Age:36, Occupation:Mechnical Engineer. Industry or Service: Lon Gen O'bus Co Ltd. Where Born:New Cross, London, Address:"Denewood", Holden Road, North Finchley, London.

[ODNB2-5] Barker, Theo (2004). "Searle, Frank (1875–1948)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. Oxford University Press.

[6] General Register Office index of marriages registered in September, October, December, 1897 - Name: Frank Searle & Charlotte Louise Soyer. District: Greenwich Volume: 1D Page: 1816.

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