Talk:Home Rule Crisis

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Chopping

When I first suggested splitting the Home Rule Act article and creating this one, I suggested that "all the extraneous detail post-1914 should be merged into relevant articles: History of Ireland (1801–1923), Easter Rising, Irish War of Independence, Government of Ireland Act 1920 etc." On reviewing those articles, I can't see that they'd benefit from anything that might be merged from here. Therefore, I've just chopped the lot and put in a short section entitled "Aftermath". No doubt, somebody will think that I've left out something essential. That's fine. It can be added back in as long as it's brief and as long as it's properly referenced. Scolaire (talk) 13:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of Civil War

On the grounds that: "while the eventual creation of the Free State is of some relevance to the Act that was never implemented, the civil war is not", I wonder what Act is referred to? The non-inclusion/deletion of the line "The 'Irish Civil War' followed", denies the fact that the Civil War was the outcome of the 1914 and its follow-on 1920 Home Rule Act which foresaw the partition of the "Irish Republic", indeed it resulted in an "80 year civil war". The Home Rule crisis did not end in 1914 with WWI (this I am not in agreement with). The HR crisis continued right through to the establishment of two Home Rule Irelands under the latter Act (one of which had an after life up until 1972). I would be in denial by not accepting that partition was the outcome of the prolonged unresolved HR crisis, civil war the outcome of partition and not of the Anglo-Irish Treaty (which was in effect the 1920 Home Rule Act in modified form).Osioni (talk) 20:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And the Cosgrave government was the consequence of the Civil War, and the de Valera government was the consequence of the Cosgrave government, and the Economic War and the 1937 Constitution were the consequences of the de Valera government, and so on and so on. History doesn't stop, it jes' keeps rolling along. But the "Home Rule Crisis" refers to a very specific two-year period in Irish and British history. It ended on 3 September 1914, when John Redmond stood up in the House of Commons and offered the Irish Volunteers for the defence of Ireland, in co-operation with the Ulster Volunteers, or alternatively on 18 September 1914, when the Home Rule Bill was enacted. There were lots of crises after that, but they were not the Home Rule Crisis. If you disagree, show me a single citation that says that World War I, the Easter Rising, the War of Independence and/or the GOI Act 1920 were part of the Home Rule Crisis.

By the "Act that was never implemented" I was referring to the Home Rule Act. If you think that the Treaty is not relevant to that, take it out. No problem. And, by the way, the Civil War was fought over the retention of the monarchy in the Treaty, and the Oath of Allegiance, not over partition. Read any history book if you doubt that. Scolaire (talk) 09:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The crisis surrounding the 1914 Home Rule Act did not evaporate after it was temporarily suspended on the outbreak of war, which neither resolved nor ended the Home Rule crisis, merely halted the imminent threat of civil war. The crisis reignited in 1916 when Redmond and Carson were offered two conflicting versions of a proposal by Long intended to end the crisis. The ambiguously worded draft given to Redmond indicated Home Rule with temporary exclusion for Ulster, Carson’s version guaranteed permanent exclusion. The exposed deceit deepened the crisis even further. The magnitude of the crisis became fully evident and reached its climax at the end of 1917/18 Irish Convention. Irish delegates were given the opportunity to work out a Home Rule solution of their own, but failed to do so. When in April 1918 implementation of the 1914 Home Rule Act was then linked with introducing conscription, it became postponed for a third time with a disastrous impact on the popularity of constitutional nationalists (Fanning, p.183 “Fatal Path”, 2013). These recurrences of the unabated Home Rule crisis, all belong on the article’s page.

With the 1914 Home Rule Act due to come into force in September 1919 after ratification of the Paris peace treaties, it became apparent to the UK cabinet that the Act made no provision for the exclusion of Ulster, which they were committed to (Fanning p.202). It then went ahead, during the War of Independence, with resolving the now 'Irish crisis' by enacting the 1920 Government of Ireland Bill, with Ulster the fundamental issue. It set up two Home Rule Irelands, reflecting to an extent the outcome of the Irish Convention. A Northern Ireland Home Rule Parliament was established in June 1921. After the Irish Free State superseded the Southern Home Rule Parliament, anti-Treaty Dáil deputies, primarily the women TDs and particularly De Valera himself, threatened trouble on 10 January 1922 (not because of the easily waived oath –a smoke-screen assertion) should the Irish Republic or its Second Dáil be "disestablished". In the following months everything revolved around this issue. Both were however abolished after the Free State’s electorate ratified the new Free State Constitution in June. This abandonment and betrayal of the (now partitioned) Irish Republic as well as its 1916 Proclamation by the Irish Free State pre-empted immediate Civil War, a single interrelated sequence of events. Osioni (talk) 21:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Does Fanning say that April 1918, September 1919 or any other time after August 1914 was part of the Home Rule Crisis? If he doesn't, you still don't have a reliable source. --Scolaire (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Both Ireland and Great Britain

In response to this edit summary, the people of Great Britain most certainly cared. If you read about the Curragh incident, for instance, you will see that senior British Army officers openly defied their own government. The British tend to take that sort of thing quite seriously, as would any nation. In fact, I don't think it would be stretching it to say that the the threat of civil war in 1914 was not confined to the island of Ireland. Scolaire (talk) 20:09, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the officers who resigned their commissions were Irish themselves, like Field Marshal Lord French. People in Great Britain did not care about the Home Rule Crisis, they just wanted Ireland to either accept being part of the UK or leave. You cannot expect to be part of a club and then decide that you deserve special treatment. (92.11.195.84 (talk) 20:34, 7 January 2014 (UTC))[reply]

I don't know where you learned your history. The Liberal government believed that the Tories were acting unconstitutionally. The Tories, for their part, claimed that the Liberals were acting unconstitutionally, and were prepared to countenance violence to frustrate the Liberal plan for Home Rule for Ireland. The situation in England was every bit as grave as the situation in Ireland. By the way, French was not one of the Curragh officers. And since Ireland was part of the UK, and their action impinged on British security, the fact that any of them was Irish didn't make it any less shocking to the British. Scolaire (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

92.11.195.84 (talk · contribs), please don't manke any edits without consulting other users. This is a collaborative project after all. And please, remember to always show reliable sources to support what you are saying. Capiche? Thanks a lot. Coltsfan (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]