Talk:Ilaria Salis

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Additional info[edit]

I added additional info to the article. I am open to discussion, if someone finds them offensive or poorly sourced. Greetings! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.206.11.96 (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah those are both poorly sourced (or making claims that the sources do not support) and POV. I have reverted your edits. Polygnotus (talk) 11:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian and the Euronews are poor sources? Hmm, Weird. I obviously reverted them.--84.206.11.96 (talk) 05:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read WP:POV? And straw man fallacy? Polygnotus (talk) 06:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Calling people neonazis even when they are not is against the Wikipedia policy of not being libelous. I asked third party opinion.--84.206.11.96 (talk) 06:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That didn't answer my questions and is not what happened. Polygnotus (talk) 06:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They were SEEN by her as neonazis. Still don't get it?--84.206.11.96 (talk) 09:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:INDENT like I asked you. Please answer my questions above. Polygnotus (talk) 09:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Libero Quotidiano is a right-wing tabloid and not a reliable source. Polygnotus (talk) 13:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://milano.corriere.it/notizie/politica/24_giugno_27/la-lombardia-chiedera-a-ilaria-salis-di-saldare-il-debito-con-aler-deve-pagare-90-mila-euro-la-replica-non-mi-devo-difendere-da-niente-a243f951-531f-419f-94b4-30e344d91xlk.shtml

https://www.ilmattino.it/primopiano/politica/ilaria_salis_casa_occupata_milano_debiti_cosa_sappiamo-8166773.html

https://www.iltempo.it/personaggi/2024/06/07/news/ilaria-salis-casa-popolare-occupata-senaldi-conto-90mila-euro-39547936/

https://www.informazione.it/a/ADB16EB3-BA78-47AA-83D1-19647DD8C3C4/La-Lombardia-chiedera-a-Ilaria-Salis-di-saldare-il-debito-con-Aler-Deve-pagare-90-mila-euro-La-replica-Non-mi-devo-difendere-da-niente

https://www.ilmessaggero.it/en/ilaria_salis_occupations_and_debts_in_milan_s_public_housing-8166768.html

https://hungarytoday.hu/controversial-mep-ilaria-salis-faces-debt-scandal-with-milan-housing-company/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.206.11.96 (talk) 13:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.206.11.96 (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You consider pro-Orbán sources to be WP:RELIABLE but on Wikipedia they fall under WP:BIASEDSOURCES (especially when used on articles about their enemies) and, looking at international sources, even WP:FRINGE. So while they could be useful for opinions, they are less so for facts. Note that Wikipedia is a WP:CONSENSUS-based project and that WP:CANVASSing is not allowed. Polygnotus (talk) 14:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

During or after[edit]

It is indeed wrong that "she was arrested during a counter-demonstration". --Norden1990 (talk) 07:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Norden1990: I changed it to "after" which is what The Guardian says (search for the word "counter"). Polygnotus (talk) 07:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Careful with rightwing Hungarian and Italian sources[edit]

Viktor Orbán is the prime minister of Hungary since 2010 and the most influential man in Hungary by far. He is similar to Silvio Berlusconi in that he and his friends control the media and are not afraid to attack those who disagree with them.

Orbán is anti-LGBT, anti-immigration, and a right-wing populist who controls the Hungarian press and the judiciary system.

Orbán loved Berlusconi[1] and vice versa. The far right in Hungary and Italy have a shared vision and often collaborate.[2]

Ilaria Salis was accused of violently attacking neonazis (despite being a tiny woman) after a counterdemonstration of a neo-nazi rally. She was was alleged to be "antifa" (I don't have evidence to confirm or deny that), which made her a mortal enemy of Orbán and his buddies. They threw the book at her (11 years!) and smeared her name (although it was unclear who did what because some participants in the fight were hard to identify because of masks and low quality video).

In Italy, where almost all of the press is controlled by Berlusconi's right-wing buddies[3][4] Ilaria Salis also received quite a bit of negative press. (Berlusconi died in 2023)

There was a minor diplomatic incident because some (left-wing) Italian people were outraged to see Salis in chains in court.[5] They made her MEP and she gained immunity from prosecution.

International newspapers (the reliable ones) are pretty neutral about Ilaria Salis but most Italian and Hungarian rightwing newspapers will say whatever to make her look bad.

We should base the article on sources that don't have a dog in this fight. We can use biased sources for opinions but not for facts. Polygnotus (talk) 10:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

The best source for how she stated she was treated and jailed and how the Hungarian prison service responded to those allegations is probably The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/01/italian-antifascist-ilaria-salis-cell-hungary-crawling-mice-bugs (il manifesto calls itself communist).

Hungary Today is a pro-Orbán paper owned by the "Friends of Hungary Foundation" and (for articles about enemies of Orbán) not a reliable source.

Euronews is owned by a company owned by a friend of Orbán who was added to Reporters Without Borders’ (RSF) annual “press freedom predators” list.[6]

Polygnotus (talk) 11:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Telex.hu was at some point (and perhaps still is) a Hungarian news site with some level of journalistic independence. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 12:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah they reported on the links between Euronews and Orbán [7] Polygnotus (talk) 12:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot cenzor a full country, all Hungarians because of “Orban” is PM since 2010 in Hungary, I did not know Orban would be “neoNazi" or that Orban would have any bussiness with this incident, however I dont care with Orban (btw the Hungarian government many times forbid that assembly where was the incident, and zero tolarence againts antisemitism https://2015-2022.miniszterelnok.hu/government-proclaims-zero-tolerance-on-anti-semitism (many similar you can find)) Jewish people are safe in Hungary, in western Europe there are more antisemitic attacks) lgbt and immogration things are total unrelated with that event, so I dont know why you mention those. You cannot remove sources from the country where the things happened and cenzor others “very democratic” way. I see you think only pro Ilaria sources are allowed by you which is a big bias. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't censor anyone. I don't think anyone accused Orbán of being a neonazi. I visited Hungary a couple of decades ago and it was very safe. We can base factual descriptions in Wikipedia articles on sources that are independent of the subject of the article. We can use sources that support or oppose something to describe the various points of view. Polygnotus (talk) 23:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Polygnotus:, I provide a short summary regarding the current (2024) media situation in Hungary and their acceptability in Wikipedia. 1, telex.hu, hvg.hu, 444.hu, 24.hu, nepszava.hu and atlatszo.hu are independent media, these news portals can be used as sources for Wikipedia. 2, Index.hu and atv.hu are somewhat acceptable, but should be treated with source criticism, since they are owned by pro-government businessmen. 3, Origo.hu, magyarnemzet.hu, hirtv.hu, hirado.hu (the so-called "public broadcaster"), mandiner.hu are part of the pro-Orbán propaganda system administered by Central European Press and Media Foundation (KESMA), These portals are full of alt-right and pro-Russian disinformation, fake news, their articles are written and authorized by Orbán's propaganda ministry led by Antal Rogán. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Is there a (more complete) list of properties owned by the KESMA network somewhere? There are at least 476. So far I found https://statemediamonitor.com/2023/10/kesma/ Polygnotus (talk) 23:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above list contains also non-political websites that do not display government propaganda, but this is a full list (from 2023). Here you can find a table. Press products with red color belongs to KESMA. Regarding the function and operation of KESMA, you can read this. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that is very very interesting! Beautiful data visualisations. Polygnotus (talk) 23:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Todoes[edit]

Does she still teach? Should she be described as a teacher or as a former teacher?

Polygnotus (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generally I've seen people continue to be referred to as teachers even after the end of their careers. The exception to that is when they are suspended by their county's professional teaching body, in which case I've seen them referred to as "suspended teacher". Does that make sense? TarnishedPath^talk 13:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, thanks. Polygnotus (talk) 13:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Polygnotus, I've just updated the infobox field occupation from teacher to politician. While she her profession is still that of a teacher, her occupation is now a politician. TarnishedPath^talk 13:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, thank you, I completely forgot! Polygnotus (talk) 14:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]