Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet chart

Add Noto Sans to font stack?

Most of the dotted circles in the table with diacritics show up as crossed boxes on my Android phone. I'm not sure why since it doesn't affect all of them, but I believe that adding Noto Sans to the font stack for whatever style those templates apply should fix the issue. BPJ (talk) 09:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no "font stack"; the phonetic symbols differ from other text only insofar as they are given the .IPA class. You may specify a font for the class in your custom CSS (see Template:IPA for more). Nardog (talk) 09:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I just tried and it appears to not work. I reset the cache but no improvement. BPJ (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I see now that the problem appears with combining marks but not with modifier letters so probably a rendering issue. BPJ (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

It's an issue with the font. Try Noto Serif (or simply font-family: serif;) and see if it works. Nardog (talk) 10:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

At this point Noto Sans fonts can hardly be recommended, for the current release versions still contain several bugs that concern IPA: badly scaled glyphs for modifier letters, wrong glyphs for contour tones, and ineffective lookups for Greek letters in phonetic notation. The latter bug is also a reminder for our template programmers that it is not enough to add .IPA class markup to our source text. In order to prevent smart fonts (not only Noto fonts) from selecting glyphs for Greek when specially designed glyphs for IPA are available a valid IETF language tag should be added, probably <span lang="und-Latn-fonipa">...</span> (undefined language; Latin script; IPA). Note that the Unicode standard considers IPA a subset (writing system) of the Latin script though a few Greek letters are used, and see https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry for the subtag definitions. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 11:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

A few questions

Would it be more correct to add tie-bars to all the affricates? If so, does anyone know how to do that?

I noticed that most of the cells have both a voiced and unvoiced symbol, with the voiceless diacritic being used if a full letter is not available. However, a few symbols (I found ⱱ̟ ⱱ ɾ̼ ɱ n̼ ɴ, there may be others) are missing their voiceless counterparts, and at least one voiceless symbol (ʈɭ̊˔) is missing its voiced counterpart. Is this intentional?

A few cells which are not shaded (many in the linguo-labial section, and some in the uvular section) are empty. Is this intentional? Would it make sense to have specific symbols for all the dental, alveolar, and post-alveolar sounds, using diacritics, to better match the specificity provided for fricatives and affricates? Or is there some theoretical, practical, or other reason to reserve such specificity to the fricatives and affricates?

Thanks for reading! JonathanHopeThisIsUnique (talk) 09:07, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@JonathanHopeThisIsUnique: The symbols with diacritics are only added when the articles about the sounds they represent exist in this encyclopedia. If you're in need of a chart that displays the capability of the alphabet, I recommend you always consult the official chart. Nardog (talk) 02:23, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Section "Other consonants"

We either have to change the introductory sentence or delete that section. I am in favour of the latter, as adding consonants that are not in the official IPA chart might give readers the impression of a comprehensive list and lead them to the conclusion that no other sounds exist in the world's languages. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 14:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Addition undone per WP:BRD. I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm not even sure if it's justifiable to list sounds with diacritics. I've seen quite some confusion because of this page, the main IPA article, etc. in various places of the internet, mistaking our charts as some kind of authority when they're essentially internal navigation boxes. And then there are the little-maintained Index of phonetics articles, Table of vowels, and List of consonants. Perhaps we should reconsider the structure of these meta articles. Nardog (talk) 14:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I added that section because the wikipedia pages for those sounds exist but were not listed anywhere in the usual chart. Andersyu31415 (talk) 15:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

This article is called "International Phonetic Alphabet chart", and ⟨h̪͆⟩ for the voiceless bidental fricative isn't even an IPA transcription. That's extIPA. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Mid-close Mid-Back Near-*unrounded* vowel?

We note the Mid-close Mid-Back Near-rounded vowel ʊ in our IPA chart and in an article - but not its unrounded counterpart ɯ̽. It may be rare, but it exists too, and isn't the same as ɯ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shibolet Nehrd (talk • contribs) 19:35, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean /ɷ/? It already deleted in standard IPA. 18:29, 5 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 悽悽慘慘戚戚 (talk • contribs)

⟨ɷ⟩ is the former IPA symbol for [ʊ]. Its unrounded counterpart, which may be represented in the standard IPA as [ɯ̽], is sometimes symbolized by the small Greek omega, ⟨ω⟩, but it's never been part of the IPA. We used to have a dedicated article for the sound but none of the examples were distinct so they were merged into Close back unrounded vowel. Nardog (talk) 19:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Where is German "ü" in this chart?

Where is German "ü" in this chart? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 19:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Which one? The lax/short "ü" is the near-close near-front rounded vowel [ʏ]. The tense/long "ü" (sometimes/often spelled "üh") is the close front rounded vowel [yː]. The complication is that the former is actually close-mid in Standard German and so it is the direct lax counterpart of /øː/, which is just the long and more rounded version of /ʏ/. This makes both /yː/ and /œ/ unpaired as far as phonetic tense–lax vowel pairs are concerned (both [y] and [œː] are non-native, and at least [y] is non-phonemic, being /yː/ as far as phonology is concerned, and I think you could get away with analyzing [œː] as /œr/, though maybe not). /uː/ and /ɔ/ are also unpaired (phonetically speaking), with /ʊ/ being the lax/short counterpart of /oː/.

In addition, none of the four front rounded vowels are fully front in German. In that sense, they're all "near-front". Sol505000 (talk) 00:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:SELFREF

There's been the readdition of some sort of selfreferential explainer. The edit summary is rather cryptic justifying it as printworthy. I'm removing it as circular. Sikonmina (talk) 07:30, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

It wouldn't be cryptic if you read the guideline you linked. See the paragraph beginning with References that exist in a way that assumes the reader is using an encyclopedia... The hatnote may go, but the reader should be informed of what they're seeing. The guideline is titled "Self-references to avoid", not "Avoid self-references", for a reason. Nardog (talk) 09:50, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

The guideline didn't specify print encyclopedias; your edit summary is still cryptic to me. Sikonmina (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Um, did you read the paragraph I pointed to? Nardog (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Where is w?

I can't find the voiced labial-velar approximant in the consonant chart. --TDKehoe (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Scroll down. It's in the small table under "Co-articulated consonants". 1.126.107.18 (talk) 14:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Coarticulated consonants Ayen2022-3 (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it possible to say ʞ?

Why is ʞ is a shaded area if shaded areas are impossible to say? If it is possible to say, why is it in a shaded box? Should it be in a different position? Currently, its position in the chart is illogical. 1.126.107.18 (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

it's a shaded box because a standard click uses this position in conjunction with the place of articulation to make the sound; the reason ʞ is there is because in ʞ you release the air pocket from the back first. Will Hendrix (talk) 16:24, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

tɕʼ is missing in the ejectives

tɕʼ is missing in the ejectives

Alveolo-palatal ejective affricate

Shibolet Nehrd (talk) 23:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)