Talk:Isabella of Mar

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage (assessed as Low-importance).

Medieval Scotland Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medieval Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Medieval Scotland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Medieval ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandMedieval Scotland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Scottish Royalty Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Scottish Royalty (a child project of the Royalty and Nobility Work Group), an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scottish Royalty on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you should visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.Scottish RoyaltyWikipedia:WikiProject Scottish RoyaltyTemplate:WikiProject Scottish RoyaltyScottish royalty articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): PhilChartier. Peer reviewers: Gdpanassol.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Isabella's Mother

Some notes on Isabella of Mar's mother, Ellen, who's identity has vexed many a historian and genealogist. Malcolm Macduff, the 7th Earl of Fife, married a daughter of Llywelyn Fawr (see the Chronicle of Melrose). The first reference to this Countess of Fife comes from 1237, but her given name is not mentioned. A son is born to Malcolm, named Colban, in 1244.

Fast-forward ahead to 1266, when Malcolm dies leaving a widow named Ellen. She marries Donald, the 6th Earl of Mar, and has five children, including Isabella. Ellen is still living as late as 1294. For a long time historians simply assumed that Ellen was identical to the Countess of 1237, and "Ellen (or Helen) of Wales" was born. But taking a moment to review the chronology shows some major problems. How could a woman of age to marry in 1237 and bear a son in 1244 still be producing children after 1266, and indeed, live into the 1290s?

The most obvious solution is that Ellen was not the Countess of 1237, nor was she the mother of Colban, nor was she the daughter of Llywelyn Fawr. Malcolm's first wife, the Welsh princess, died sometime after Colban's birth in 1244, and Malcolm married again to Ellen. Were she a much younger second wife, this would explain why Ellen could marry the earl of Mar and go on to have five children with him.

As for this Welsh princess, a daughter of Llywelyn Fawr and Joan of England was sent to England as a hostage in 1228. Her name was Susanna, and she disappears from English records soon after 1228. 1228 was also the year in which Malcolm took possession of the earldom of Fife. Malcolm was a strong supporter of the English cause and the English king. Susanna was the niece of King Henry III of England, was present at the English court, and was the right age to marry. Could Susanna be the daughter of Llywelyn married to Malcolm in 1237? It's entirely possible, but no definite proof exists as yet.

As for the parentage of Ellen? It is still a mystery. Missi 03:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is unlikely that Helen was the daughter of Llewelyn Fawr as she was born in 1246. Llewelyn Fawr died six years earlier. If she was indeed his daughter then she would be too old to be Isabella's mother. She either had to be the illegimate daughter of Llewelyn Fawr's grandson, Llewelyn "the last" or another possibly suggest that she may have been the daughter of Llewelyn Fawr's son Dafydd and his wife Isabella de Broase. She would have been born not to long after the death of Dafydd.RosePlantagenet 17:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

High English?

What is "High English" supposed to mean? I'm changing it to English, although it's almost more likely she spoke Scots. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 09:03, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]