Talk:James House (singer)

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On 29 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to James House. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Requested move 29 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:44, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– The only other entities with the exact name "James House" are James House (Rogers, Arkansas) and James House (Pensacola, Florida), which both have less than one page view per day. The singer has over 25. Everything else on the dab page James House except for the singer's album is a partial title match with at least one word other than "James House" in the title. From this evidence, it's abundantly clear that the singer is by far the most common result for people looking for the exact name "James House", and should therefore be the primary topic. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 00:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom (pageviews). Station1 (talk) 20:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This distinction of exact name vs partial title matches is odd. If any of these places aren't actually known as James House, why are they even listed there? Conversely, if the places are known to our readers as such, why would we not include them as legitimate topics in the discussion of this ambiguity?

Let's apply the fine WP:DPT guideline and have a look at the usage aspect. Here's what I found in the page views: all-time monthly page views for the disambiguation page and the singer, all-time mass views of all items linked from the list and in the clickstreams:

clickstreams snapshot

From the meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream archive:

clickstream-enwiki-2017-11.tsv:

James_House James_House_(singer) link 18
total: 18 to 1 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2020-11.tsv:

James_House James_House_(singer) link 11
total: 11 to 1 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2022-05.tsv:

James_House James_House_(singer) link 11
total: 11 to 1 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-07.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

total: to 0 identified destinations

So, the singer's article gets some viewership, but it's not particularly significant (the page about the architects of one of those James Houses gets five times as many readers on average), and it's not clear how it's particularly larger than the viewership of the other items - its 20/day is hard to compare with various indices (where not nearly all the traffic is just for a James House listed there). The viewership of the James House disambiguation page is so small that it's been hard for our system to identify clickstreams from it, it likely gets largely anonymized (no data points in the last year). If we compare the numbers for the few months from earlier years I happened to have, in May '22 it was 11 clickstreams with 21 views (~52%); in November '20 11 over 19 (~58%), and in November '17 18 over 28 (~64%). Some sources and destinations might have been anonymized there, too, which might mean it was really something like 80 or 90% where a primary topic by usage could be assumed, but we can't actually know that. It would be worth an experiment, though.

Continuing with the WP:DPT guideline, we should consider the long-term significance of all of the relevant items. As there is no discussion of that at all in the discussion above, I will default to saying oppose. (Please feel free to apply the guideline completely and ping me afterwards if it should be reconsidered.) --Joy (talk) 21:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re "If any of these places aren't actually known as James House, why are they even listed there?", I agree completely and have cleaned up the page so that all the entries not clearly called James House are now in a See Also section. I haven't bothered to look at each one of those to see if they are ever called James House, so have not deleted them completely from the page, but if anyone wants to delete any or all, I have no objection. Station1 (talk) 22:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Station1 but that literally goes against the example I mentioned above - the D. L. James House is referred to by the article that describes it as "James House". Can you please go back to the list and check that you didn't make similar mistakes elsewhere? --Joy (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only source I can find, https://gamblehouse.org/crossings-coincidences/ , calls it the D. L. James House, so I've updated the header in that article accordingly. But if you have a source calling it simply James House, by all means it should be moved up on the page. Station1 (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also will need proof that any of those places is commonly called just the "James House" and not by its full name. So far I'm not finding evidence. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 02:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Station1 wait, what do you mean? It seemed easy enough to use normal google to find references to James House Greenhouse and Charles Greene’s adjacent James House main house at [1], The James House. Original Plan, Charles Greene at [2], Charles and Henry Greene [at the front terrace of the James house, Carmel Highlands] at [3]. If our average reader stumbles across sources like these, it seems completely reasonable that that would be the term they'd look up. --Joy (talk) 11:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good finds. I've moved that one up on the dab page. Station1 (talk) 22:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Caldorwards4: @Martin4647: @Sammi Brie: @ChrisTofu11961: @Jax 0677: for relevant topics. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 02:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support moves - Support per page views. Do you know why I was pinged? --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. No primary topic per long-term significance. All the houses listed could be referred to as "James House". -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Necrothesp: Says who? Prove it. 99% of the other James Houses are partial title matches. Theoretically, the city of Cooper, Texas could be called "James House" but that doesn't mean it should be on the dab page too. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 13:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Says who? Prove it. Are you serious? There are twenty houses on that list that could be referred to as the James House per WP:COMMONSENSE. The fact they may only be partial titles matches is therefore utterly irrelevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Necrothesp: Since when does "common sense" preclude a move? I could say it's common sense that my left big toenail has an article, but that doesn't make it so. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 21:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TenPoundHammer while Necrothesp and myself often disagree in RMs, where I think he puts too much weight on what appears to be more gut feeling than common sense, that can't be countered with made up statistics :) In 2009/11, Doncram had written a list of 20 houses he thought qualified as "James House". Over the course of this discussion, we've verified this term for at least 1 of them, which is 5%, which means the partial title match claim could only ever be valid for 95%, it just can't be 99%. Rather than arguing about this on a theoretical level, let's try to prove or disprove any kinds of ratios based on what can be found in the sources. For example, if you showed some reasonable sample of these entries, like 10% or 20%, were never referred to as just "James House", it would be much easier to believe that that is the case for most of them. --Joy (talk) 15:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say I see no difference between gut feeling and common sense! -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if a lot of people share the same gut feeling it can be common, but otherwise there's an inherent bias :) --Joy (talk) 09:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Country Music, WikiProject Biography, and WikiProject Musicians have been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 05:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Joy. Searching “James House Scituate” shows that the Capt. Benjamin James House is called “James House” by a local RS [4]. Same for the Benjamin James House [5]. For the rest in the current See Also section, web searches for “James House” followed by the town name has the historic house in the top search results. We can’t assume that all of these houses are not called “James House”, because some clearly are. Readers searching for “James House” are not clearly looking for the singer over any of these houses based on the views data we have. Toadspike [Talk] 13:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.