Talk:Jezdimir Dangić/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Collaboration

The infobox and lede emphasize Dangićs collaboration with Germans in period December 1941 — April 1942. That contradicts the text of the article which says that "Dangić's Chetniks collaborated with German forces in eastern Bosnia over a period of several weeks..." after Kuntze vetoed the conclusion of the agreement on 12 February 1942. This assertion is based on Tomasevic who says (p 208) " ... the parties seems to have gone ahead with some collaboration for a few weeks...". Even communist prosecutor (who explained that Dangic was among recipients of the Karađorđe star received from prime minister of the Royal Yugoslav government-in-exile in London? on p. 92) accused Dangic for collaboration with Germans since the beginning of 1942 (Jezdimiru Dangiću, Mihailovićevom komandantu Istočne Bosne koji je od početka 1942 godine sarađivao sa nemačkim okupatorima i Nedićem protiv partizana.) Somehow few weeks after 12 February 1942 became several months with edit made by PRODUCER (diff). Why? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, be WP:BOLD. Obviously you've taken the time to find sources (these and those mentioned above) and place them on the talk page. What's stopping you from adding these things to the article itself? I appreciate your input, by the way. 23 editor (talk) 00:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I already explained why I do not edit article myself. Dangić and related topics are not subject of my interest, so I am reluctant to perform changes of the text without opinion of group of editors who are main contributors to this article (including Peacemaker67 and PRODUCER) and much more acquainted in the Chetniks subject. Therefore I would really appreciate if PRODUCER can reply to my question and explain his above edit.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Both 23 and I have given you an opinion, so go right ahead. No doubt someone will revert you if they think you've overstated the case. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Is there any specific reason not to give PRODUCER a chance to explain his position? If not, I would appreciate if he can reply to my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Sure, PRODUCER hasn't been around much recently though. I would have thought that three out of four is sufficient consensus for inclusion. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

He had more than dozen edits in this article alone in past 24 hours. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Then I'll leave it with him. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:16, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I added that due to the fact that "Between December 1941 and April 1942, Dangić engaged in direct negotiations with the Germans. During the latter half of December he met with Abwehr representatives numerous times in an effort to reach an agreement with them." I think conspiring to commit treason is within itself collaboration. Your mention of the Karađorđe star speaks more about the exile government than Dangic and the other collaborating Chetnik commanders that received the same medal. Personally I don't plan on getting bogged down in 10 simultaneous discussions. I'm already having déjà vu from the Pavle Đurišić discussions. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 15:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• @Peacemaker67, this is not the first time you collapse discussion over objection of another editor (me). Will you please be so kind not to continue ith such practice.
• @PRODUCER, Negotiation ≠ collaboration. Dangic negotiated with Germans since August 1941. That does not mean he collaborated with them. On the contrary. Between August and December he captured most of eastern Bosnia which belonged to German puppet state NDH. It is wrong and non-neutral to insist on precisely following the sources in case of monthly time span connected with Dangic's anti-German activities in Poland but not in case of his collaboration with Germans. Will you please be so kind to follow the sources and revert yourself? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

According to who? Dedijer and Miletić on page 86 state "Dangic came to east Bosnia on 16 August under the authorization of Draza Mihailovic to organize Chetnik units in the battle against the Partisans. In all negotiations with Partisan leadership in that area until the end of 1941 he declared that he was for cooperating and made agreements to cooperate, but at the same time he reached an agreement with the Ustase-Domobrani units of the NDH and German occupiers of a joint struggle against the Partisans. Direct negotiations with the German occupiers of armed cooperation began in December 1941 and lasted until April 1942." Original in Serbo-Croatian: "U istočnu Bosnu došao 16. avgusta sa ovlaštenjem Draže Mihailovića da organizuje četničke jedinice radi borbe protiv NOP-a. U svim pregovorima sa rukovodstvom NOP-a na tom području do kraja 1941. deklarativno bio za saradnju i sklapao sporazume o borbenoj saradnji, a istovremeno se dogovarao sa ustaško-domobranskim jedinicama NDH i nemačkim okupatorom o zajedničkoj borbi protiv NOP-a. Direktne pregovore sa nemačkim okupatorom o oružanoj saradnji protiv NOP-a poveo decembra 1941. i vodio do aprila 1942. godine." --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 14:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• Miletic explains that direct negotiations between Dangic and German occupiers began in December. Dangic began to negotiate (not directly but trough written correspondence) with Germans since August 1941. Here is a (link) to one of the sources which confirms that right after his arrival to Bosnia in mid August Dangic wrote a letter to German command in Zvornik proposing to Germans and Italians to take control over Bosnia in exchange for Chetniks' surrender. Although he negotiated with Germans and their allies since August Dangic captured most of eastern Bosnia which belonged to them. That is why Tomasevic says that "some collaboration sems to have gone ahead for a few weeks" after Kuntze vetoed the conclusion of the agreement on 12 February 1942.
• Is this enough to explain that negotiation ≠ collaboration and you should revert yourself because the text of the article should present information which is directly supported by reliable source (Tomasevich)? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Miletic says "he reached an agreement" for a "joint struggle against the Partisans" with the Germans during 1941 and according to Miletic and Redzic the earliest direct negotiation is December 1941 so no I see no reason to revert myself. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 23:51, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Reaching an agreement with Ustase domobrani before beginning direct negotiation with Germans in December does not mean Dangic actually collaborated with them. On the contrary. He fought against them and captured most of east Bosnia from them in that period. Do you see reason to revert yourself now?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

south of the demarcation line, the Italians kicked the Home Guard out then invited the Chetniks in. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

That is why I wrote "most" of east Bosnia, not all.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

And the Partisans captured several towns north of the demarcation line. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Many, if not all, together with Chetniks. None of your comments refute my point so I expect PRODUCER to reply to my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

What I see is that "as early as that August, Mihailović had urged the Chetniks to "avoid clashes with the Germans for as long as possible." Dangić likewise sought to avoid conflict with the Germans", that his "operations were directed primarily against the Ustaše and the Bosnian Muslim population of the area", and that "[Dangić] has had good relations with the Germans". First you said negotiating isn't collaboration and now you're saying reaching an agreement for a "joint struggle against the Partisans" isn't collaboration either. What nonsense. In any event we have Jareb, a Fulbright scholar, writing in a book which is edited by Sabrina P. Ramet, an academic juggernaut on Yugoslav history frequently cited on Wikipedia, and published by Palgrave Macmillan, a publisher specializing in academic research, that solves this outright.--◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 18:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Avoiding war with Germans does not mean you are German collaborator. Especially if you are fighting against German puppet state NDH and capture its eastern part. Otherwise USA would be defined as German collaborating state at the beginning of WWII. Negotiating or agreeing on collaborating is not collaboration. Collaboration is actual collaborating as explained by Tomasevich. Work of Jareb is not reliable in this case per link presented below. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually if anything the date should be set earlier. Dangić was in the gendarmerie of the Serbian quisling state/government whose sole existence was due to the Germans and whose loyalty laid with the Germans. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 13:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67. Are you sure that works of Jareb are reliable sources taking in consideration the explanation provided at the following link (link)? Is there any particular reason to present Chetniks and Dangic more Nazi collaborative than Tomasevich says?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, of course! As soon as a scholarly source is used that undermines your argument, you attack the author. I don't use sources like a nephew of Nedic published by a Serb emigre newspaper. I use a Fulbright scholar asked by Sabrina Ramet to write chapters in two books she has edited and published by Pan Macmillan and Routledge. You have got to be joking. Talk about clutching at straws. A wise man once said, "Tell him he's dreaming!" Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:17, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• I used two arguments to support my position:
  • I explained the issue of using Jareb's work with valid source which explains in detail that work written by Jareb is "nationalist-revisionist". For the topic of this article it is important that it is emphasized that his work "demonize Serbian Chetniks".
  • I also pointed to Tomasevich who explains in detail that in-spite all negotiations and agreements reached on collaboration between Dangic and Germans they "seem to have gone ahead with some collaboration for a few weeks" after 12 Februry 1942. That is why I asked if there is any particular reason to present Chetniks and Dangic more Nazi collaborative than Tomasevich says.

@Peacemaker67: I don't think that your (again) unnecessarily harsh comment address this issue or replies to my question. Unless better source can be found for monthly time span for Dangic's collaboration with Germans the text of the article should reflect what Tomasevich stated.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:40, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

You once again completely misunderstand WP policy, which is really inexcusable after all the time you have been here. IF, and I say IF, there is a difference between reliable sources, we attribute them intext and contrast them, we don't adopt one because that suits our POV. Note what I did with the slightly differing version of events about the Gorazde massacre. Please get a clue. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:52, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Quote

"In mid-1942, Đoka Đorđević, senior Serbian Interior Ministry official, asked Đukanović during a visit to Nedić: "Do you really still have Turks in Bosnia? They must all be expelled and cleansed, so that we can enter Bosnia and establish our government."[53]"

What does this have to do with Dangić? 23 editor (talk) 00:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Đukanović was in Dangić's Chetnik Provisional Administration that was set up in east Bosnia which I'll expand on when I'm done fleshing out other bits of the article. He accompanied him in the Belgrade meetings and it's particularly relevant given the aspirations of Dangić and Nedić. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 01:03, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• This SFRY source says that Provisional government of Eastern Bosnia was disestablished by Dangić in February 1942 - Branko Latas; Milovan Dželebdžić (1979). Četnički pokret Draže Mihailovića 1941-1945. Beogradski izdavačko-grafički zavod. p. 132. Retrieved 1 October 2013. По повратку у источну Босну Дангић је 6. феб- руара 1942. распустио Привремену управу и реор- ганиэовао.[After he returned to Bosnia, Dangic disestablished Provisional government on 6 February and reorganized....]
• This quote is not the only quote which is added to the article to overemphasize collaborationism and bloodthirstiness of Dangic and Chetniks, or simply to ridicule them. The result is complete mess:
  1. "Do you really still have Turks in Bosnia?" This quote is not connected to Dangic.
  2. Dangić is said to have held a "fierce hatred" of Muslims,
  3. allegedly saying that he wished to "kill them all,"
  4. and that he had an "absolute willingness" to collaborate with the Germans.
  5. Mihailović had urged the Chetniks to "avoid clashes with the Germans for as long as possible."
  6. Dangić likewise sought to avoid conflict with the Germans and began to pursue a policy of "self-defence against the Ustaše and revenge against the Croats and Muslims."
  7. Hoare describes this behaviour as being "not yet genocidal."
  8. It also reported that "[Dangić] has had good relations with the Germans and does everything in order to avoid collision between his troops and the Germans."
  9. to "prevent the Chetniks from taking their revenge against the Croats."
  10. "to slit the throats of the Turks, except for any pretty Turkish ladies"
  11. and "screw down the Croats so hard that they wouldn't dare for a thousand years to look at a Serb askance."
  12. "to turn our People's Liberation Struggle into a war of Serbs against Muslims"
  13. "that the peaceful toiling Muslim people is not to blame for the crimes that the Ustaše have commited, and that the People's Liberation Army must protect them from persecution and killing."
  14. Dangić wished for "Serbs to gather for a war of revenge"
  15. Dangić ordered his own troops to permit the Germans to pass through Bosnia, saying "they are advancing peacefully and minding their own business without disturbing our unfortunate and long-suffering people."
  16. Dangić's staff declared that the Partisans "are led by the Kike Moša Pijade, the Turk Safet Mujić, the Magyar Franjo Vajnert, and that so-and-so Petar Ilić whose real name nobody knows [emphasis in the original]" ...
  17. the shared goal of the Partisans and Ustaše was "to break up and destroy Serbdom. That, and that alone! [emphasis in the original]"
  18. They started to re-form Chetnik units in eastern Bosnia and began agitating against the Partisans on a "conservative, Serb-nationalist and anti-Muslim basis."
  19. "Major Dangić is a Serb and will remain one. He has only made the offer in order to use East Bosnia as his troop training ground, to overcome the winter months, and to make preparations to gain East Bosnia for Serbia."
  20. "Dangić on this occasion declared that he and his men would, even in the conditions of a general uprising in the Balkans and the arrival of the English, fight loyally and without wavering on the German side. He declared on this occasion his belief that only German victory could guarantee Serbia the position due to it in the Balkans, while the victory of Bolshevism would mean the destruction of every nation, thus also including the Serb nation."
  21. "Nedić's Chetniks are distributing weapons and ammunition from the quota they receive from the Germans for the struggle against the Communists. They are constantly sent from Serbia into Bosnia and are claiming that they will conquer the latter."

There is an essay Wikipedia:Quotations which says : "Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

This claim that the quotes are there simply to "overemphasize collaborationism and bloodthirstiness of Dangic and Chetniks, or simply to ridicule them" is absolute rubbish. Every single one of those quotes is reliably sourced and relevant to the topic at hand. The personal essay is not a guideline merely another editor's suggestion and a poor attempt at legitimizing your personal dislike of the content. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 17:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree, a complete beatup. Essays are just that, they are not policies. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Just a query: I noticed that most of these quotes that Antidiskriminator is referring to are cited with Hoare. Is this Hoare paraphrasing what people are alleged to have said or are there actual documents/correspondence/journal entries from which these quotes are derived? Not against the quotes, but I must emphasize that this is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry, not a novel. 23 editor (talk) 23:21, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I consider that most, if not all of the quotes are entirely relevant and presented in context. They are drawn from a clearly reliable source, a Doctor of History that specialises in the former Yugoslavia and is published by one of the top university presses in the world. We don't look at a reliable source and deciding what bits are ok, and what bits are not. They are either relevant or they are not. Happy to discuss relevance if that is the query, but I don't believe it is appropriate for us to engage in a debate about the primary (or secondary) sources Hoare (or any other reliable source) has used. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I propose to seek resolution of this dispute at DRN. Does anybody object to my proposal?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:12, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Because that was so effective last time? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:01, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Inspite the objections of other editors and before dispute resolution process has even began, PRODUCER added (diff) another quote (again based on Hoare): the massacres were "above all an expression of the genocidal policy and ideology of the Chetnik movement." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

there is no agreement to go to DRN, so why should anyone wait to edit the article before DRN happens? That would mean delaying for ever if there is no agreement to go to DRN. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Straw man. I did not complain about editing the article but about addition of more quotes although two editors complained about it. DRN is not the only dispute resolution process. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Overreach. 23 challenged one quote, and after he queried something about quotes in Hoare I addressed it from a policy standpoint and he has not rejoined the conversation as yet. He is more than capable of indicating where he stands on this issue. I am adding to the article as I work my way through Hoare (and coincidentally am addressing some issues you have raised, using a reliable source, of course) as I go. When I come across something that warrants a quote, I'll add it. Your apparent expectation that anyone will desist from adding quotes where appropriate because you "just don't like it", can take a short walk. You work out what you want to do with "dispute resolution", and let us all know. I personally thought the last foray into DRN was a farce, and I have no intention of carrying on this discussion there as well as here. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:16, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

@PRODUCER: You still haven't "fleshed out" the bit about Đoka Đorđević. As things stand right now, the quote attributed to him looks really quite random. Please sort this out. 23 editor (talk) 04:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Drina Martyrs

I'm surpised to see no mention, until I placed it there, of his alleged role in capturing the Drina Martyrs, which lead to their eventual martyrdom. Bearian (talk) 21:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)