Talk:Joachim Müncheberg/GA2

GA Reassessment

The result is Delist. There is consensus that the article fails GA2 (verifiability) GA4 (neutrality). These issues were not resolved during the course of the reassessment. –dlthewave ☎ 18:04, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article has had an Unreliable Sources tag since 2017 and relies heavily on "Schumann, Ralf; Westerwelle, Wolfgang (2010). Ritterkreuzträger Profile Nr. 8 Joachim Müncheberg – Der Jäger von Malta [Knight's Cross Profiles Nr. 8 Joachim Müncheberg – The Hunter of Malta]. Per recent consensus at RSN, Schumann & Westerwelle 2010 is not a reliable source and thus fails GA criteria 2b. –dlthewave ☎ 20:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delist. –Vami♜_IV♠ 23:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

This assessment is based on a false premise. In fact, two.

1) there is next to no substantive proof in the link the sources are unreliable; just opinion.

2) the second falsehood is that this article "relies heavily" on them. A glance at the article and anyone can see that is totally false.

Once again Vami, do you actually look into these things before you vote?

All things considered, no. Dlthewave will have to do much more than make unsubstantiated claims. Perhaps asking the author of this page if there are alternative sources, after showing the existing ones are unreliable, would be a better way to go. Dapi89 (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, I am going to increase this to a third area - it is apparent from the link provided there was no census at all; three versus three (possibly four). So the premise is completely dishonest. Dapi89 (talk) 11:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dapi89: If you disagree with the recent community consensus at WP:RSN or feel that the RfC was not closed properly, please raise your concerns there. –dlthewave ☎ 18:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delist: I note that Schumann was replaced by Röll & other sources in the recent series of edits: diff. The source is:
- Röll, Hans-Joachim (2010). Major Joachim Müncheberg: Vom König der Malta-Jäger zum legendären Jäger-Ass von Tunis [Major Joachim Müncheberg: From the King of the Malta-Fighter to the Legendary Fighter-Ace of Tunis] (in German). Würzburg, Germany: Flechsig. ISBN 978-3-8035-0014-4. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

This source accounts for 50+ citations in the article. I don't see that Röll meets WP:RS as I was unable to find information about this source. All I could find on the author was listings of his books: JPS.de; Worldcat. --K.e.coffman (talk) 16:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

comment. Opinion.

Once an editor has provided any source that he or she believes, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material has an obligation to articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia (e.g., why the source is unreliable; the source does not support the claim; undue emphasis; unencyclopedic content; etc.). If necessary, all editors are then expected to help achieve consensus, and any problems with the text or sourcing should be fixed before the material is added back.

Votes bases on opinions should be disregarded. Dapi89 (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delist. Not neutral and including a lot of unnecessary details. It is simply a list of “aerial victories” and awards translated into tiresome, repetitive prose. About 30 or more times the word "claimed" is used in connection with Müncheberg. A random example from a single paragraph: Müncheberg claimed his 26th victory ... Müncheberg claimed a slow flying Hurricane ... he claimed another Hurricane at 14:06 and a second one the very next day. Müncheberg claimed his 33rd victory on 28 March 1941. This was also his 200th combat mission which was celebrated by the entire Staffel. Müncheberg was credited with shooting down 135 airplanes and we learn about every single one of it. The outook is clearly celebratory. See, e.g., The entire 7. Staffel at the time was anxiously awaiting the announcement that Müncheberg had been awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves. Following two more Hurricanes shot down on 6 May, his total now at 43 victories, Müncheberg received the news of his award on the early morning of 7 May. Müncheberg became the 12th member of the Wehrmacht to be honoured with the Oak Leaves and two hours later received news that Duce Benito Mussolini had awarded him the Gold Medal of Military Valor (Medaglia d'Oro), the first German to receive this award. Hitler sent him a teleprinter message on 7 May 1941 congratulating him on his 40th aerial victory. This is not neutral. Futher unnecessary details concern dining with Hitler, skiing at St Anton and courting an actress. It is important to note, that there are not many sources on Joachim Müncheberg. He is just one of many German fighter pilots. Thus the article is based upon special interest literature. As to the main source, the book by Hans-Joachim Röll, this is a military pulp bio containing many fictional elements, but no notes. Röll creeps inside Müncheberg's head during the dogfights. A small sample: Suddenly tongues of fire twitched from its engine. Müncheberg was rather shocked, did not feel like cheering at all. For a few seconds he sat paralyzed behind the control stick, stared in bewilderment at the enemy plane, which was becoming more and more engulfed in smoke and fire. (p. 12, my translation) I do not consider military pulp of this kind to be RS.----Assayer (talk) 16:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.