Talk:Josephine Baker/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Josephine Baker. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

English story

During this time, when Baker returned to the United States, she was at a dinner party and began to speak in French as well as English with a French accent. An African-American maid was reputed to tell her, "Honey, you is full of shit. Speak the way yo' mouth was born". She had the woman fired.

Source? I'm not saying this didn't happen - I do remember Baker coming under fire from American blacks who felt like she had no right to stir up so much racial trouble for a country she didn't live in. But this story, along with the poison wine story, sounds more like fiction than fact. Rattlerbrat 11:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I had the same questions---this article needs more sources! Kemet 1 April 2006

...can be found in "Naked at the Feast", one of the first bios written about her. the maid told her that her mouth was full of shit and just speak the way she was. josephine had her fired.go and read more... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.74.114.176 (talk • contribs) 05:13, 12 March 2007.

Children

Since she adopted 12 children from all over the world, I would imagine that would be important enough to explore (or even properly mention) in the article. I was looking for information about the outcome of these children whom she dubbed her "Rainbow Tribe" which was asking a lot, so at the very least explain her large family.

I've added a little bit on them from what I could find online. Someone will need to turn my link into proper references and notes, as I am not so good at that. -Kez 02:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the bio is definitely lacking. I could have sworn there was at least *something* here about her adoptions and civil rights work before. I'll see if I can find it in history.

Photos

I don't think that a fair use claim for a photo of Baker can be justified when there are free photos available. If that Van Vechten photo from 1949 were the only one available, then maybe we could make the case, but there are several more on Commons to choose from -- see commons:Josephine Baker. —Cel ithemis 22:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont really see why it matters if its fair use or not. The photos in the commons are nice, but some of them dont look so good due to the quality. They are just sitting there...... maybe a gallery would be good. --Mrlopez2681 06:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the fair use policy. We may not use a fair use image when a free alternative is available. I agree that the images on Commons are not perfect, but this is not something we can just choose to ignore. —Cel ithemis 07:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand you don't like the Van Vechten image, but putting the fair use one back in again isn't going to change the policy. Can you give a reason why all the free images do not adequately provide the same information as this image? If not, then unfortunately it violates Fair Use criterion #1 and will wind up deleted.

You can rearrange the free photos any way you want, of course. The Van Vechten one doesn't have to be at the top of the page. —Cel ithemis 08:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pls refrain from revert wars. If you can't resolve this issue I would suggest to ask for mediation.
My 2¢ worth: The glamour years of the 1920s and 1930s represent but one aspect of Mrs Baker's life. I think that a picture at a more mature age is entirely fitting, in particular in view of the fact that she became something like an icon at a later age.
btw: I just noticed that that aspect of her life is entirely missing from this biography. Looking at the French version there is a section about La femme (the woman) in which her off-stage activities are highlighted. Such as her involvement in the French resistance during World War II, her involvement in the civil rights movement in the US, and the Red Cross. Also, the fact that she adopted children from different ethnic background. It seems to me that is may be more constructive to extend that portion of the biography. 12.74.162.118 09:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to remove the image again, but it should probably go to Wikipedia:Copyright problems for wider discussion if this can't be solved some other way.

There is another free image at a more mature age available, which I quite like, personally: Portrait of Josephine Baker —Cel ithemis 09:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

PD post-1935 will be hard to find. I managed to come across Pictures of African Americans During World War II; it seems to be government owned, so it may be argued that it is PD, "Miss Josephine Baker, popular stage performer, sings the National Anthem as the finale to the show held in the Municipal Theater, Oran, Algeria, N. Africa. The band is directed by T/Sgt. Frank W. Weiss." May 17, 1943. 111-SC-17523. I am not too impressed though. 12.74.162.222 01:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I am getting sick and tired of administrators challenging every fair use image that is uploaded - if they are going to do this because non-free images should not be used, then what is the point in even allowing fair use images to be uploaded in the first place? Ive tried to place better images of Baker on the page that are far more representative of her as a performer, person, etc., but User:Calliopejen1 keeps taking them down because free images are available - these free images dont give one a good idea of who she was as a performer, etc., and are mostly from her early days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrlopez2681 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I really think it is a little over-the-top to clutter every section of this article with images of a young Josephine in her Banana costume, etc. These images are far better off in a gallery, rather than being placed in sections that have nothing to do with them. Unfortunately various administrators have made it a mission to remove any non-free images of Josephine which I have added from her later life (these images fit far better). --Mrlopez2681 (talk) 02:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

despite whatever your personal, moral or aesthetic objections may be, wikipedia does not censor. further, your invocation here to engage in an edit war, and your continued reverts will surely get you reported to administrators. --emerson7 18:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Please remove the "topless" photo of Ms. Baker. I looked up many burlesque stars and nude models; but, none had nude or semi-nude photos. Sure, she IS beautiful; but, she was so much more. It is inappropriate for this great public site to have this photo for children to see. It leaves too great an impression and detracts from the respect JB should be shown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.220.37 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 3 May 2009

I totally agree with you! That is why I deleted the picture a few days ago! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.24.80 (talk • contribs) 8:40, 23 June 2009

Yes. This is not censoring but removal of unnecessary content. For practical reasons, there should not be posting of inappropriate content if it does not add to the article. I'm removing the pointless erotic photograph, and if anyone decides to add it back in, they should take it to the talk page instead of starting an edit war. Including that photo would mean that it's logical to include naked photos of every actor and actress who's ever appeared nude on camera, something obviously unworkable. Kbog (talk) 07:30, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Have to agree with comments above. One use of the banana costume may be acceptable; using it twice when only four photos are shown is a bit much. Is it really so hard to find a dignified photo of Baker and put it at the top?Catherinejarvis (talk) 19:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Freemason

I find it interesting that nobody has stated that Josephine Baker belonged to the French Feminine Freemasonry. Yet, there is evidence enough and most serious Freemasonry websites and books so state it. She belonged to the Grand Loge Feminine de France, as stated by http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/baker_j/baker_j.html and http://www.eburgmasons.com/35famousmasons.htm among others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.154.0.80 (talk) 11:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced material in need of sourcing

I'm moving the following unsourced material here about Baker's personal life from the article until it can be properly sourced per WP:NOR/WP:V:

Willie Wells (foundry worker, 1919)

William Howard Baker (Pullman porter, 1920–23)

Jean Lion (French sugar magnate, 1937–38)

Jo Bouillon (orchestra leader, 1947–57)
She also went through two non-legal wedding ceremonies to Giuseppe Pepito Abatino in 1926 and American artist Robert Brady in 1973.

Nightscream (talk) 07:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
As the section on her personal life stands now, there is only a discussion of her possible affairs with women. However, no relationships with men are mentioned in that section at all, which makes no sense. Intentionally or not, this creates a false impression about her sexual preferences and contradicts other sources and the content of the rest of the article. Could someone knowledgeable fix this? -EugeneK (talk) 01:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The "fact" that she was the first African American to serve in a major motion picture is also uncited. Hopefully someone can fix this? -Charles Stover 20:45, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Piscine Josephine Baker

The article states erroneously that the Josephine Baker swimming pool is the "first-ever swimming pool over the Seine." In fact, from there was a very famous floating pool on the Seine, the Piscine Deligny, constructed in the 19th century (apparently its prototype was constructed on a barge in 1801 on the initiative of a swimming instructor, Mr. Deligny, and later reconstructed in the 1840's). The swimming events for the 1924 Paris games were held there; it was an immensely popular public pool, known by Parisians as a site for near-nude sunbathing and a good place for cruising until it sank on July 8 1993. I'd put in some links, but one of them just got rejected.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to try to edit the article right now (in fact, I have to leave for a swimming workout), but perhaps some interested and knowledgeable soul would care to make the correction. If not, perhaps I can at some later time.

What about Eddie Carson ?

In the German version of this article Eddie Carson, Josephine Baker's probable father, is presented as White (and Jewish). This appears to be in contradiction with the English version. Please clarify if possible.

Robert Schediwy (Vienna)Belated signature --Robert Schediwy (talk) 14:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Eddie carson was said to be Josepjine's father.but she believed he was a white man.i do not think so that because he was carrie mcdonald's lover and carrie was josephine's mather. Eddid carson is most likely to be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.74.114.176 (talk • contribs) 05:16, 12 March 2007.

BAKER'S FATHER -

what you wish to believe and what the facts state are two different things. One cannot edit a quote from a source to suit their own opinions. This is an encyclopedia.

I find it rather interesting that so many people are on this mission to downplay or erase the fact that, in all actuality, Baker's father was a white man. Certain people feel Josephine Baker HAS to be the child of two african-american parents for some reason, as though it is a bad thing that the woman had European blood in her veins. Eddie Carson and Carrie McDonald could in no way have produced a child that looked the way Baker did. In every single source I have ever encountered by those who knew Baker intimately, ALL have stated that her father was white and that she knew, deep down, that she was of both European and African descent. I have seen photos and film of Baker's siblings: Baker and her brother and sister had the same mother, but different fathers - african-american fathers to be specific. Carrie McDonald (Baker's mother) was very dark-skinned, as were her children - except for Josephine Baker.

Unfortunately Baker issued many biographies throughout her life that stated so many half-truths and downright fantastical lies that they spread from source to source. She herself would say all kinds of things concernering her father to suit wahtever purpose or mood she had at the moment - she said that he was indian, white, jewish, italian, etc. Baker's mother refused to utter a word about the truth concerning Baker's real father to the day she died. Baker's so-called "estate", (which is merely a licensed medium for her name, products, etc.) claims, for some reason, that Eddie Carson was her father. Why? I have no clue.

I have every biography that has ever been written about Baker, all the way to the first one she wrote in the 30's. Some are in french, or german, or english. Jean-Claude Baker's book, "Josephine, The Hungry Heart" is the best out of all of them with regard to research and the desire to state the facts regardless if it is pleasant or not. Many modern bios are merely compilations of earlier material, and thus help spread the misconceptions mostly planted by Baker herself. Jean-Claude Baker "hit the pavement", so to speak, to find out the real facts behind the life of this ever so illusive and incredible woman. It took him many years. Baker herself, it seems, loved to make her true self a mystery to people, and he is the only one who has unravled this self to some degree.

I equate people's denial of Josephine Baker's white father with people's denial of Alexander the Great's homosexuality. -Mrlopez2681 (talk) 05:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

After all this debate, it is still not clear whether Eddie Carson was actually black or white. Can someone tell us? Valetude (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Is she the basis for Franz Kafkas' Josephine?

As I read Josephine the Songstress or: The mouse People (1915) by Franz Kafka; I couldn't help think that there were a lot of parallels to Josephine Baker and her American audience’s ambiguousness towards her. Anyone else have an opinion?

JB is not mentioned in [Josephine_the_Singer,_or_the_Mouse_Folk] Arbalest Mike (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

More Editing Required

I cleaned up some glaring grammatical errors but the entire article needs to be reviewed for duplications. Her Resistance efforts are mentioned in a few different places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markus451 (talk • contribs) 04:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Please do not remove information properly cited as well as pictures —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaskouri (talk • contribs) 11:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Notification of proposal that her d.o.b. be made a national holiday in France and the United States, with international adoption cited as the primary reason. I'm going to look into whether this article requires improvement as well, when I wake up.Julzes (talk) 08:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

"Legacy" section

Hello. Could someone (more knowledgeable than myself) check the "Legacy" section of this article? It currently reads more like an advertisement than an encyclopaedia article. Thank you! -Limittoyourlove (talk) 10:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Done, although I did a bit more cutting than paraphrasing. It needed it. Kbog (talk) 07:25, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Walter Winchell

"In 1951, Baker made charges of racism against Sherman Billingsley's Stork Club in Manhattan, where she alleged that she had been refused service.[24][25] Actress Grace Kelly, who was at the club at the time, rushed over to Baker, took her by the arm and stormed out with her entire party, vowing never to return (and she never did). The two women became close friends after the incident."

Here is another response to the incident, one that should be incorporated into the article as well:

(From Walter Winchell)

"Winchell also labeled African-American-French entertainer Josephine Baker as a communist after she took him to task for not questioning the racial-discriminatory policies of the Stork Club in New York. His relentless campaign against Baker prevented her from getting her visa to enter the US renewed."

Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

March on Washington contradictory info

This article says "Baker was the only official female speaker" during the March on Washington. This contradicts the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom article that says that Josephine Baker UNofficially addressed the crowd during the preliminary offerings, and that the only woman who spoke during the official program was Daisy Bates. I don't have time to go through all the sources right now but it looks like the Excluded Speakers section of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom article has many more sources, while this Josephine Baker article just has the "Infoplease" citation which doesn't even say she was an official speaker. Dreamingiris (talk) 14:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Nationality issues

I added this line because the previous intro leaned more towards her being American than French when she in fact renounced her American citizenship in 1937.

I believe she should be considered French. She lived in France her entire adult life. She was a French citizen and a French icon.Carlaclaws (talk) 22:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Josephine Baker was not "Afro-French" as the article suggests. She was born in St. Louis, spent her childhood there, and was African American. The renouncement of her American citizenship was a result of her new French citizenship. The usage of Afro-French suggests that she is decended from Africans that had lived in France, which is not the case. Perhaps something like "Josephine Baker was an African American dancer, singer and actress." with an explanation of her French citizenship and lifestyle following the sentence would be less confusing. Thanks-(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 01:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC))

You're right. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:47, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

To say that Baker was an "American-born French dancer etc." is to say that she had French parents but happened to be born in America. Obviously that was not the case. I think we need to stick to the facts: she was an American dancer etc. who found fame in France, her adopted homeland. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Why would you take take that phrase to mean she's ethnically French? It states she's African-American right after. The facts are that she was French for more than half her life and actively renounced her American citizenship. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the earlier comments in that saying "American-bron French dancer" is misleading. To us it makes sense, but other people don't have as much prior knowledge on Baker, and it is at no point stated that both her parents are American as well. It really does make it sound as though she is ethnically French and it could definitely be rephrased to avoid this confusion. Tunisiatai (talk) 05:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

My edits

I have added the most accurate information available in print on Baker's lineage, replacing the incorrect statements which were there before.

The "official site of her estate" is, in my opinion, nothing when compared to the information coming from those who knew her best. Jean-Claude Baker's 1993 bio is definately the most accurate and well researched essay on Baker ever published, and is a tour de force done in collaboration with interviews from family and friends.

Although in the USA Josephine Baker is typically thought of as the "dancer in the banana skirt", she is known everywhere else in the world else as a singer, first and foremost.

I often see her credited as an "actress and dancer", etc. Sure, she was known for her dancing in her early days, but she was a singer, period. Her last starring role in a movie was in 1935 after only three other films which she starred in. She was never a 'movie star', per se.

In light of this I think it is far more appropriate to call her an 'entertainer', even though she was without a doubt a singer above all else. -Mrlopez2681 08:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Although this edit was made long ago it would be much better if it was under a topic heading relative to subject. Arbalest Mike (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Jean-Claude Baker's 1993 biography is questionable at best, and closer to complete garbage. I have it in front of me. It is a series of quoted conversations that the author did not witness, it has no footnotes or endnotes, no list of his interview subjects, and is basically gossip. And, of course, the author was not related to Baker but changed his name as an adult to suck off her celebrity for himself. In the first few pages he admits that he "was not even a fan" and "hated her." These are his words.Catherinejarvis (talk) 22:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)26 December 2012 (UTC)

First African-American woman to star in a major motion picture?

This article says "Baker was the first African-American woman to star in a major motion picture, Zouzou (1934)." I don't think this is accurate, however, because the African-American actress Nina Mae McKinney was one of the stars of the the MGM motion picture, Hallelujah (1929), as indicated in the Wikipedia article for that film. It would be more accurate to say that Baker was the first African-American woman to star in a major motion picture that did not have an all-black cast. Lauste (talk) 03:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in this area ..but you've provided a good reason to change the article. You should mention Hallelujah! (film) so people know its not a mistake & also refer to the talk page. Regards JRPG (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Timeline Issues

Her first marriage was to Pullman porter Willie Wells in 1918 when she was just 13 years old.

As she was born in 1906, that does not fit. She was either married at 12 or married in 1919, please check and correct. 87.91.98.103 (talk) 16:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

And, if the date in 1918 was before June it would make her 11 years old. Several of the citations state that her first marriage was at 13 while only one of many sub-articles in that reference state that it was in 1918. So, I removed the year and let the more cited data point remain. Arbalest Mike (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

The citations used to support the above issue bring up a another issue in that they state that at 13 years old she worked as a waitress and sometimes on stage. Meanwhile the WP article states that at 13 years old she was living on the street. Arbalest Mike (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk Page Clean-up

I am proposing a clean-up of this Talk page and will do so myself in a week or two if it is not done by then.

Each of the topics of Nationality, Sexuality and Photos have several separate sections that can be combined and edited down. A few sections pertain to something that has been already been added, removed or edited and have no context given the current article. The talk pages are meant to be about the article rather than general discussion of the subject. So at least some of that general discussion should go. -Arbalest Mike (talk) 17:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Mostly done, today. Arbalest Mike (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

“...1948 beating of the furniture shop owner...”

The latter part of this sentence in the "Civil rights activism" section

The honor she was paid spurred her to further her crusading efforts with the "Save Willie McGee" rally and the 1948 beating of the furniture shop owner in Trenton, New Jersey.

is nonsense. For one, it states she perpetrated the beating. For another, the beating predates the honor (which was accorded her in 1951). Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 04:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Josephine Baker Day

In the "Civil rights activism" section, the article states, "Her reputation as a crusader grew to such an extent that the NAACP had Sunday 20 May 1951 declared Josephine Baker Day." Who or what body declared Josephine Baker Day? Was it declared in 1951 only or was it meant to be observed annually? (May 20 has it as an annual occurrence.) Finally, if this was declared in the United States, the date should be written May 20, 1951. (Also, I think the inclusion of the day of the week is unnecessary.) Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 04:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Error on Dates

"Four days later, Baker was found lying peacefully in her bed surrounded by newspapers with glowing reviews of her performance. She was in a coma after suffering a cerebral hemorrhage. She was taken to Pitié-Salpêtrière Hospital, where she died, aged 68, on 12 April 1975.[43][44] She received a full Roman Catholic[45] funeral which was held at L'Église de la Madeleine.[46][47] The only American-born woman to receive full French military honors at her funeral, Baker's funeral was the occasion of a huge procession. After a family service at Saint-Charles Church in Monte Carlo,[48] Baker was interred at Monaco's Cimetière de Monaco.[43]

April 1978 Baker got an opportunity to revive her career and have one final performance Baker received riveting reviews and was honored at a party in her name. Baker was the last partygoer to go to bed that night, she died at a French hospital[10]"

In the Later Years and Death part of the article, it says she died on April 1975. Then the next sentence, it says in 1978 she got to perform one last time and then died that night. Those are two conflicting dates. How could she perform while dead? I feel someone messed up that part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.227.233.136 (talk) 09:43, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

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Pilot

I'm having a hard time finding info about her time getting her pilot licence (read it in passing and came across a photo). Would love to know more details, e.g. when she got her licence and what did she fly, for how long, where, etc.

In the book, Josephine Baker: The Hungry Heart, it talks about her buying a plane in May 1935, after having taken 6 hours of instruction. https://books.google.ca/books?id=4DymtqI6gf8C&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=josephine+baker+airplane&source=bl&ots=sYV4AzICmi&sig=jyb3xSOvUAkjtu1PHXj1Gd24kEk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9l5CB5bLPAhUN4WMKHSJ4CVIQ6AEIVTAI#v=onepage&q=josephine%20baker%20airplane&f=false

This appears to be a photo of her in 1935: http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/american-born-french-singer-dancer-and-actress-josephine-news-photo/110118972#americanborn-french-singer-dancer-and-actress-josephine-baker-during-picture-id110118972 24.68.29.140 (talk) 20:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)khaetee

Racist banana pictures??

Firstly, thanks to Po Kadzieli for raising this issue. My only knowledge of Baker comes from these pages but she's someone I have a great admiration for. I come from Leicester -arguably the most multicultural city in the UK but I saw nothing offensive. It's more difficult today to judge the attitudes of people who allowed Baker to appear in a banana skirt but someone like that would have refused to wear it or would have subsequently made known her feelings about it. I don't see evidence of this -otherwise it would have to be included. If the dresses made her famous then they most definitely should be included -together with appropriate comments from modern scholars. Wikipedia isn't censored. Regards JRPG (talk) 22:43, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

In case others are wondering what JRPG is referring to, it is these edits which removed the banana costume photos from the article. I think that a Vogue article published in 2016 90 Years Later, the Radical Power of Josephine Baker’s Banana Skirt has some interesting things to say on this issue including this quote:

"But beyond her beauty and charisma, Baker, who would have turned 110 today, radically redefined notions of race and gender through style and performance in a way that continues to echo throughout fashion and music today..." Shearonink (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

1927

1926

As JRPG wrote, Wikipedia isn't censored. Here are the photos. Yes, they were scandalous in the 1920s, but by today's standards their "nudity" seems tame. Including both in the article was probably overkill, but how can we not include a single picture of Baker as she looked when she took Paris by storm, especially when they're in the public domain.

Does the costume, with a woman of African descent dressed in bananas, rely on racist tropes? Absolutely! But that's no reason to censor the article. Include a quote or two from recent decades about the cruel bargain that Baker made to become a celebrity, about how she chose to wear a banana skirt on stage in Paris instead of scrub floors in St. Louis. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

.

In my opinion, to not include a photo of one of Baker's most iconic stage appearances would be like deleting any mention of Funny Girl from a Barbara Streisand article - it is one of the events/performances/creative endeavors that the artist is known for....

Also, now the infobox image (1950 in Havana) is repeated within the main text...there are so many other images of Miss Baker that are freely available on Commons...surely one of them would do rather than repeating the Infobox one?... (see Images of Josephine Baker in Wikimedia Commons). I particularly like the graphics of "ZIg's" poster from 1930. Shearonink (talk) 03:42, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

This is a most welcome discussion and I am pleased to share with you some of my reasoning behind the edits that some may view as censorship. The context is that Wikipedia is still a place where women are under-represented both as subjects and as contributors. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the same to be the case for those of us who identify ourselves as people of colour/color. We are also in the area of semiotics, both in terms of photography and culture. Miss Baker, as a twenty or twenty one year old, did as you say, take Paris by storm and the pictures taken then are indeed iconic, for she transcended some of the mores of the time. Some will know, better than I, whether it was she who 'chose' the banana costume or how much it was the influence of her management to produce a glamorous and exotic act. Whatever the case, it worked. However, as we look upon these pictures now, from the perspective of ninety years and following the formidable and historic struggles that have taken place since, and continue still, to overcome both sexual and racial inequality and objctification, football-terraces continue to echo with racial taunts and blow-up bananas are waved at black players. We may not continue to plead ignorance or lack of evil intent: Arendt has reminded us of the banality of evil.

So the editorial task here, or in Vogue for that matter, becomes contextualised and is that much more delicate and deliberative: How I found those pictures placed in the article - uncommented and placed rather casually/randomly - as I explained in the edits, was and is potentially disrespectful and actually offensive to any who might identify with their subject. This is not to say the pictures ought not to appear at all, but as Wikipedians we accept a level of propriety, as opposed to censorship, in a modern information medium. Think, if you will, how a young black person of whichever sex, might feel coming upon the article for the first time, or indeed someone who does not bother to read but merely, clocks the name and the pictures. They tell us we have the attention span of a (male?) gnat! Thanks for your patience, --Po Kadzieli (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks again --Po Kadzieli for highlighting the issue. I don't have any expertise on Baker but we agree we want the 2 pictures restored & the Vogue comments added. Key question, should they be added along with Vogue in a single section? Could I ask you and Shearonink to comment -or just apply wp:BOLD. Regards JRPG (talk) 17:05, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

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