Talk:Justin Berry

Reverted edits - attempt to build consensus

JzG reverted the following edits for reasons of sourcing. I've set forth the reasons for these edits and would appreciate any input as to how they can be made more acceptable. I'd like to discuss each edit separately so we can reach a consensus as to which edits should stay and which shouldn't. I've indented article taxt for ease of reading, and italicized changed words and phrases. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Heading change

I changed the heading from Kenneth Gourlay to Ken Gourlay. I'm not sure how this was a sourcing issue; I changed it to match how Gourlay is referred to in the following paragraphs and in Berry's quote. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph

Add wikilink to Camp CAEN

I wikilinked to the article on Camp CAEN to provide more context about how Gourlay brought Berry to Michigan. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Berry's allegation of child sexual abuse

I changed

In his testimony, Berry said that Gourlay had molested Berry while Berry was in Michigan attending this camp.

to

In his testimony, Berry alleged that Gourlay had molested him while Berry was in Michigan attending this camp.

I see alleged as the more accurate terminology, since it was an accusation of wrongdoing on Gourlay's part, but it's a very minor point. I also changed the second reference to Berry to read him because saying Berry's name three times in one sentence sounded awkward. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed sentence about Gourlay's conviction

I removed this sentence and put it into a separate paragraph in altered form, since reviewing the sources revealed that the sentences Gourlay received were not accurately divided between the crimes committed against his two victims. The original sentence said:

Gourlay was convicted of several statutory counts of having sexual intercourse with Berry and another teen while both were under 16, Michigan's age of consent, and was sentenced to 10 to 15 years in prison.

Having more paragraphs but shorter makes readong easier, and that the importance of Gourlay's criminal trials and convictions is better explained in a separate paragraph. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph

Gourlay's allegations

I created this paragraph, which stated that:

Gourlay alleged that Berry "had addictions to drugs and money, and eventually to sex" both before and after they met. When Gourlay heard about Berry's foray into pornography, he "pleaded with [Berry] to find another source of income and redoubled [his own] efforts to help him grow his (website) design business."

This is a scaled back version of a longer quote. The factual information regarding Berry's addiction & activities has been corroborated by Berry, and Gourlay's quotes come from a letter he wrote. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name="GourlayLetter">Letter from Ken Gourlay published by GenerationQ</ref>

GenerationQ published this letter from Gourlay before his conviction. If anything, Gorlay's attempt to justify what happened goes far to show that he was plainly wrong in his whole conception of the situation. I read the letter and I came away thinking "Wow, how could he be so blind to what he was doing?" --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Third paragraph

Gourlay's conviction for molesting Berry

Berry's allegations were upheld in court and Gourlay was convicted in March 2007 of nine felony charges and one misdemeanor for having sexual intercourse with Berry starting in May 2002 while he was three months below the age of consent.

This corrects an inaccuracy in the original sentence cited to the source below. Previously, it sounded like Gourlay's conviction for molesting the second boy also covered his molestation of Berry. This clarifies what he was convicted of WRT Berry. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name="GourlaySentencing">Ken Gourlay Sentenced, Attacked In Prison, Associated Press, May 26, 2007</ref>

This is an Associated Press article on Gourlay's sentencing. A convenience link is provided to a copy stored in a blog. The blog itself is not, however, a source of information, only of a copy of the article. The AP article would be a valid source even without the link. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Gourlay was also convicted of 13 counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct for sex with another minor, age 14, on multiple occasions from December 2004 to May 2005.

Here, I'm referencing the other molestation case against Gourlay, which only came to light because of Berry's coming forward. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name=InmatesAttackChildMolester>Inmates Attack A Child Molester, Detroit Free Press, May 26, 2007, 435 words. (ID: dfp0000434183): Minutes after being sentenced Friday, a Detroit man who made national headlines for molesting boys he'd met on the Internet was assaulted inside a Wayne County courthouse lockup, resulting in hospitalization. Ken Gourlay, 29, was sentenced to 10 to 15 years in prison on 13 counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct involving a 14-year-old boy, who is now 16 and lives with a foster mother in Harper Woods. Gourlay molested the boy from December 2004 to May 2005. Gourlay made…</ref>

This is a Detroit Free Press article retrieved from their website. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Gourlay received a sentence of 10 to 15 years in state prison.

<ref name="GourlaySentencing" />

<ref name=InmatesAttackChildMolester />

</nowiki>

This is a Detroit Free Press article retrieved from their website. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

References

Current activities section

Original:

Starting in 2006, Berry has worked as a paid public speaker and has secured professional representation.

Edited:

Starting in 2006, Berry has worked as a paid public speaker represented by an agent.

Since the extra verbiage didn't add meaning to the sentence, I shortened it. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

External links section

• "Justin Berry - Sex, Lies and Videotape" - GenerationQ

• "The Winner Takes All" - GenerationQ

• "How Old Am I?" - Report on Berry's testimony aghainst Gourlay GenerationQ

• "A Letter From Casey July 15 2006" - GenerationQ

• "A Letter From Casey November 20 2006" - GenerationQ

These all come from GenerationQ (website), an Australian LGBT online magazine. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• The fundamental problem is that GenerationQ and blogs are not acceptable sources for material of this seriousness about living individuals. Just find a better source. Uncontroversial factual corrections are... uncontroversial. When well sourced, anyway. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• • I can understand where you're coming from on that. However, you also removed content sourced to the Detroit Free Press and the Associated Press, and removed the addition of wikilinks and other edits not related to the concerns mentioned above. Am I correct in understanding that I am in safe territory to make those edits, and that it's just the GenQ / blog material that you're objecting to?

• • As far as GenerationQ goes, what are your objections to it as a source? As has been discussed here before, I don't think I'd trust it to provide analysis, but I would trust it to provide direct quotes from involved individuals. To my mind, it's better than The Globe, but not as good as The Times.  :-) Thanks, SSBohio 00:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Gah!

Wow, this article is still being Whitewash (censorship)? I'd expect after all this time for there to be a little objectivity. 75.16.113.54 (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is The New York Times Censoring this Article to preserve their "Reputation"?

Somebody please Cover this article with an unbiased nature. If you want to know the truth: http://www.wikitruth.info/index.php?title=Uncensored:Justin_Berry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.87.136 (talk) 00:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

External links

The following external links I moved from the grossly bloated EL section. Per WP:ELNO point 1, these sources should either be integrated into the main body of the text or deleted (if they can't be integrated, what do they add to the page?) The EL section isn't a holding area for possible references, that's the talk page. Even the titles are repeating information in the case of the DFP and LSJ articles. WLU (t) (c) ^{(rules - simple rules)} 17:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• "The New York Times Legal Aid Society" - Slate Magazine
• "KurtEichenwald.com: The Back Story" - Slate Magazine
• "A Heartbreaker From Eichenwald And The Times" - CBS News report
• "Sex diary betrays man's lust for boys" - Ann Arbor News article about Kenneth Gourlay
• Detroit Free Press article about Ken Gourlay's arrest
• Lansing State Journal article about Berry's hospitalization & Gourlay's trial
• Detroit Free Press article about Berry's hospitalization & Gourlay's trial
• "Witness says he was used for sex" - Ann Arbor News article detailing Berry's testimony against Gourlay

Death

A discussion about his mysterious death and lack of reliable sources was had in December 2020 and can be found at WP:RSN in the archives under the section title "Death of Justin Berry / User:JustinBerry" .. probably will end up in "/Archive 321" or somewhere around there. -- GreenC 17:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

For those who are having trouble finding it, the discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 322#Death of Justin Berry / User:JustinBerry. Shāntián Tàiláng (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I recently reverted the death addition that an IP editor that had slipped under the radar for some time. Nothing new has been brought to the table that wasn't mentioned at the discussion above, there are still no proper references for this person's death (or even that they went missing). FDW777 (talk) 16:33, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted another attempt to add a claimed death. It was a slight improvement on what's been attempted before, in that it included a Mexican media reference asking for public help with the disappearance of a Justin Knute Berry. The difficulty in leaving in a possibly properly referenced sentence about his disappearance is that it may encourage people to add an unacceptably referenced death, since there are still no reliable references for his death (ignoring the WP:BLPPRIMARY violating probate documents). But others may disagree on that point. FDW777 (talk) 13:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Appeared on C-SPAN?

It seems odd to describe giving testimony before the a U.S. House committee as having "appeared on C-SPAN" in the "Media Appearances" section. While the event may have been broadcast on C-SPAN, it would not be considered a media appearance.

Considering this information is repeated in more detail and with more context in the more appropriate section "Interviews and Congressional testimony", shouldn't the entire sentence be removed? Sentence in question: "Berry, Eichenwald and Gourlay appeared on C-SPAN, giving testimony before the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the United States House Committee on Energy and Commerce."

After re-reading the article, it seems odd to me to have the Oprah interview mentioned in the "Interviews and Congressional testimony" section yet mentioning other interviews in the "Media Appearances" section. I think the Oprah interview should be moved to the "Media Appearances" section, and perhaps the other section could be renamed "Congressional Testimony". Prunenoveggie (talk) 08:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)