Talk:Leon (German singer)

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Requested move 3 November 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 19:21, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

– The accent is insufficient to disambiguate Leon (singer) from Léon (singer), especially in view of the fact that Léon redirects to the Leon disambiguation page. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support both In ictu oculi (talk) 10:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support both Leon lists both accented and non-accented items. For disambiguation purposes, the accent should be ignored. -- Netoholic @ 10:48, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Accents are not ignored and can be used for disambiguation in article titles, it's only in disambiguation pages that it makes sense to combine them. Support moving Leon (singer) - there's also Leon Robinson as well as being identical to the Swedish singer's name without diacritics. Léon (singer) is already disambiguated - people looking for the German singer (or the American singer) wouldn't expect an acute accent there, so Léon (singer) doesn't refer to him any more than León (singer) or Leön does. People who already know of the Swedish singer could confuse them but hatnotes exist for that purpose. Peter James (talk) 20:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS, characters such as accents which are not on standard keyboards should be avoided. If used, as in Léon, then additional redirects are required, which would lead to this conflict of article names. Therefore, such an accent mark cannot be used as the only way to distinguish between articles. The solution must be to proceed as given in this move request. -- Netoholic @ 17:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's an example in WP:SMALLDETAILS (another section of the same policy page): "The Wörld Is Yours vs. other topics listed at The World Is Yours." There's a redirect from The World Is Yours (Motorhead album) for WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS; to apply that here would be to create a redirect from Leon (Swedish singer) to Léon (singer). Peter James (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but those examples are related to primary topics - not parenthetical disambiguated. In the case of this vote, we have two topics that must be parenthetically disambiguated already, so we should make that disambiguation as crystal-clear as possible while being concise. This move request does that. -- Netoholic @ 06:11, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support both. The Wörld Is Yours is an unusual case, because the form with the diacritics is unique and unusual. The Leon vs Léon distinction could apply to any holder of this name, and which form is in use for any given subject will not be well-known to any English speaker, hence fails WP:RECOGNIZE. — Amakuru (talk) 15:05, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's as recognisable as (possibly more recognisable than) using nationality for disambiguation. Someone looking for any of these articles without knowing whether there's an accent on one of the letters would enter it without, whether knowing the person's nationality or not; from the disambiguation page it doesn't make a difference whether there's "Léon (singer), Swedish singer" or "Léon (Swedish singer)". It's only when typing "Léon (singer)" that there's a difference - and for any reader who expects a German singer's name to contain an accent that isn't used in German on a letter that doesn't usually take an accent in German a hatnote can be used. Léon is also unusual for a Swedish name. Peter James (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Main title headers of Wikipedia articles should not be counterintuitive. Anyone searching English Wikipedia for a singer named Leon is not going to type "Leon (German singer)", "Leon (Swedish singer)", "Leon (American singer)" [if searching for Leon Robinson, who is usually billed as simply "Leon"], or even "Leon (singer)", but he or she will simply type "Leon" and search for the correct entry within the disambiguation page. Since standard keyboards in the English-speaking world do not contain an "é", parenthetical qualifiers in English Wikipedia should reflect analogous form — Leon (German singer), Leon (American singer) (which would be a redirect to Leon Robinson) and Leon (Swedish singer) (which would be a redirect to Léon (Swedish singer)). It would be counterintuitive to have one header indicating Leon (German singer) and another Léon (singer). As far as national identity is concerned, both nominations are stage names which do not resemble their nationalities' naming forms — the German's birth name is Jürgen Göbel and the Swede's birth name is Lotta Lindgren. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 08:47, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't what policy says - it even uses something equally counterintuitive as an example as I've mentioned above - The Wörld Is Yours and The World Is Yours (Ian Brown album) - and there are many more, such as Éton and Eton, Berkshire. I mentioned nationality as a possible reason people may think there's an accent on one of the letters - and it is possible to type them in as virtual keyboards often have letters with some diacritics (such as "eèéêëēėę", but not "ě" and others). Peter James (talk) 23:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and each example provides its own specific set of particulars. In general, while some WP:SMALLDETAILS distinctions such as uppercase / lowercase may or may not be acceptable, distinction solely by accents / diacritics not available on standard keyboards in the English-speaking world is difficult to accept. Perhaps the comparison to the uniquely-styled The Wörld Is Yours might be more apt if the main title header for the Swedish singer were "Léon", rather than "Léon (singer)". The need for the qualifier makes the Swedish singer no longer unique, but rather requiring a longer qualifier, analogous to the German singer. If the Swedish singer is to be left unchanged, why change the German singer? The argument for extending the German singer's qualifier due to the existence of the American singer, who is frequently billed as "Leon", is not really applicable since Wikipedia's main header for him is Leon Robinson, not Leon (American singer). As for other examples, such as Éton, each one has a unique history and, if we decide to initiate an RM for Éton → Éton, Meuse, that discussion would be inherent to those circumstances. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid - and in this case it's valid to point to the similarity as it's an example in a policy, not a page name that has never been discussed or had no consensus. "Léon (singer)" is precise enough to identify which Léon is being referred to, but "Leon (singer)" is not precise enough to identify which Leon. Peter James (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support both. Both policy (see above) and reader experience favour these moves. The existing disambiguation is insufficient. Andrewa (talk) 17:21, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.