Talk:Llapi River

When did the metathesis occur?

Yves-Edouard Boeglin has written an extensive article about the particle Lab- in regional, pre-Slavic toponymy and the Lab river in general: Boeglin, Yves-Edouard (1968). "La rivière 'Lab' de Serbie". Onoma. 13 (2–3). International Centre of Onomastics: 319–332. He shows that the particle existed in a metathetic form since pre-Roman times and it corresponds to the onomastic area of Illyrian, historically linked to the Labeatae tribe along the later route from Ulpiana to Lissus, but it is unclear whether the movement (of people and toponymy) followed an E-W or vice-versa path. He then says that the pre-metathesis form may be linked the Albanian ethnonym and that the toponym of the Lab river valley appears as Lapia in (late) Roman/ (early) medieval texts: Il est certainement tentant de rapprocher notre Lab du nom des Labeates, établis aux débuts de l'ere chretienne dans la region de Scutari mais qui sont venus, peut-etre, de l'interieur des terres. À ce propos j'indiquerai que l'on relève une ligne E-W sur laquelle on trouve : 1) la rivière Lab; 2) un village Labljani, près de Priâtina, donc non loin du Lab (-ljan, suff. ethnonymique normal en serbo-croate à partir d'un nom de rivière) ; 3) un village du même nom près de Pec, indiqué déjà dans la charte de Zica (XIIIe s., Lablani), dans une région où l'on chercherait en vain un nom Lab sur lequel ce toponyme-éthnonyme a pu se former ; 4) la région du lac de Scutari où les Labeates sont installés au début de notre ère. Évidemment, dans l'état actuel de nos connaissances, il ne nous est pas possible d'indiquer s'il s'agirait d'une migration d'E en W, c.-à-d. de l'intérieur de l'Illyrie vers la mer, ou l'inverse. Cette rencontre de quatre noms en Lab- dans cette zone d'entre le Lab et les Labeates méritait cependant signalee, d'autant plus que la ligne Lab, Labljani I, Labljani II, Labeates correspond assez bien a la route allant de Ulpiana vers Lissus. [..] D'autre part, le nom des Labeates est lui-même encore un mystère, et il n'est peut-être pas sans rapport avec le nom des Albanais tout proches, la métathèse ALB > LAB n'étant pas toujours, comme on le pense trop souvent, un phénomène phonetique apporte par les Slaves.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Haven't seen anything giving it an explicit date before. Likely during whatever period it was that Albanian had l~r instability, as Romanian did, so early Middle Ages, but I don't have any RS atm. --Calthinus (talk) 20:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 9 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus seems to have been reached for Llapi River (see this discussion on my talk page for further explanation), so I will close this as moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 00:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

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Lab River → Llapi River – The current name "Lab River" is never used in Kosovo or in other parts of the world. The actual name of the river is "Llapi River" (Albanian: Lumi i Llapit). This is used everywhere this river is mentioned. You wouldn't find an reasonable recent article that uses "Lab River", because that was never the name of the river. Here, I added some english articles on different topics that have to do with the "Llapi River". Once again, please consider my request to change the name of this article to "Llapi River". The articles: https://knowledgecenter.ubt-uni.net/conference/2022/all-events/206/ https://knowledgecenter.ubt-uni.net/conference/2018/all-events/197/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330781270_Effects_of_urban_development_on_water_quality_of_the_Llapi_RiverKosovo Typical Albanian (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 21:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 23:20, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Typical Albanian, you should try to show that the proposed name is more commonly used in English sources than the current one is. Read WP:COMMONNAME for more details. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Is this still valid now the attending editor has been blocked. I'll close it in 2 days in case anybody has a view. The article hasn't been touched for years, so probably no reason to leave it open. I'll close it in two days. scope_creep^Talk 20:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Still a valid request and should stay open at least seven days. The nom's only been blocked for 24 hours so that will be over tomorrow. Then we'll see. For the nom, [ here is a gift ] for you to read. Page moves a) must be done by using the move link at the top of the page, and b) if undergoing a request like this one, must only take place after the request has been closed and consensus supports the page move. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:56, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

    Hello everyone, I found these English articles online that mention the actual name of the river "Llapi River", I didn't want to include Albanian Articles to prove that this is the name of the river. I used to be a local of this municipality and I added the photos that were taken by me at of the river. And with that I want to prove that I am not making up this name because I want so, but because it is its actual and the only used name for this river. I am sorry that I removed and redirected the page to the other one but I honestly did not know that that shouldn't be done. So with kind regards, I request to change the name of this article from "Lab River" to "Llapi River". Thank you!

    Articles:

    https://www.nato.int/Kfor/docu/inside/2002/ik_020705b.htmhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/280948206_Water_Cooperation_and_Peacebuilding_Exploring_Internal_Transboundary_Water_Governance_In_Kosovo_After_1999

    http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/kosova/1999/99-01-10.ksv.html

    https://iaeme.com/MasterAdmin/Journal_uploads/IJCIET/VOLUME_10_ISSUE_12/IJCIET_10_12_012.pdf

    https://cyberleninka.org/article/n/1199856

    https://www.proquest.com/openview/43ff4b38efaccd665675135d9b975e61/1?cbl=1036416&pq-origsite=gscholar&parentSessionId=N4FxNh1wo9w%2BrHSrSs0XryF7m%2BpeGlxgWwMzGV%2BuI4w%3D

    https://www.scinapse.io/papers/3006541081

    https://balwois.com/wp-content/uploads/old_proc/ffp-1167.pdf Typical Albanian (talk) 19:12, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

• Note: peripheral discussion was moved to nom's talk page.
• Comment Sigh. Lab River brings up far more search results in English, but Llap River brings up slightly more academic results, the difference in academic results seems to be based on the country the paper was published in, and it doesn't seem as if there is a clear WP:COMMONNAME. The river is entirely in an Albanian-speaking part of Kosovo, however, so Llap may be the more used name overall. I'm not sure what to say here... SportingFlyer T·C 14:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: I have not done an in-depth GB search, but from a quick look many results for "Lab River" and "Llapi River" do not refer to this river (even when you add "Kosovo" some of the results refer to things like labs studying rivers or the Llap region). If indeed there seems to not be a common name in English as you suggest, then WP: RIVERS should be taken into account. WP:RIVERS says about Rivers with multiple names: "Some rivers have names with multiple spellings which vary with the different countries the rivers pass through.

If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.

If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.

If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest."

If so then "Llapi River" should be the name of the river. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:06, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm still not sure - I distinctly did a search with Kosovo and spent some time with the results, and the widest part of the river is in a part of the world where there are even multiple placenames for towns. SportingFlyer T·C 16:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the further explanations why should the river bear the name "Llapi River". And SportingFlyer, you are completely correct when saying "The river is entirely in an Albanian-speaking part of Kosovo, however, so Llap may be the more used name overall". That's the reason why I intiated this name change thing. Typical Albanian (talk) 14:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

SportingFlyer, there are multiple local names, but the local name used by 90% of local people is Llap. A similar case is that of Vjosa, which does not have an obvious common name in English. The name got named after the most common local name (i.e. the name used by the largest ethnic group). Same has happened with some Kosovo cities/towns, whose articles have been named after the main local name due to lack of a common English name. Probably far from an ideal solution, but this is the multiethnic mess in the Balkans. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello everyone, since no one objected the name change nor offered sources to support the current name, I will change the name to "Llapi River". I have already mentioned several English articles/sources, including a NATO article, that specifically mention the name "Llapi River". Btw, here it is the NATO article (since the link above wasn't working for some reason): https://www.nato.int/Kfor/docu/inside/2002/200207.htm. Typical Albanian (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

You have to wait for this move request to be closed because it wasn't unanimous. SportingFlyer T·C 18:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support I am not particularly interested in this one, though since nobody else has provided a response to the RM for 2 weeks, I am stepping in. The WP:RIVERS says that when a river does not clearly have a common name in English, then the main local name should be used. 90% of the local people use Llap rather than Lab. Also it would make this article be in line with Llap (region), the region named after the river. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support Indeed, I concur with the assertion that there exists no conventional nomenclature in the English language. Therefore, it follows that resorting to the predominant vernacular term of the locality in question should suffice, as elucidated by WP:RIVERS above. KleovoulosT (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Llap River or Llapi River? Not getting a clear read between the two in this discussion, they're used somewhat interchangeably. (I do so far see consensus to move away from Lab River.) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 23:20, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.