Talk:Malakar

Clean up

This article was mixing up the surname with the caste but was mostly about the caste. Since we cannot assume that someone bearing a particular name is affiliated with a caste that is called by that name, it would be better to create Malakar (surname) and have a disambiguation note on both articles. Creating that list of people, together with any sourced information about the origins of the name, would probably fail unless we have articles for more than one person who bears it. Only notable people should be on such a list, so consider WP:WTAF. Please also note the information at User:Sitush/Common#Castelists.

I have also removed some sources. H. H. Risley is, by longstanding consensus, not a reliable source, and we do not cite predatory journals. Both have been discussed at numerous venues in the past, including WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 06:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Mali

The official OBC lists, which I realise are ambiguous primary sources, sometimes give Malakar as a synonym for Mali caste. For example, in the Bihar and Jharkhand lists. We could be looking at a merge here. - Sitush (talk) 06:25, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

There can me a separate page for Mali for that. This article is for the bengali surname Malakar which is spread throughout Bangladesh and Bengal. Banglapedia link: http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Shola_Craft

Vandalism by Sitush

"(what the source says (are there even many Hindus in Bangladesh? they're heavily persecuted, I think?))" "do not know why this is here - they're in W Bengal, not East"

These are some of the comments by Sitush for his edits. The person is completely unaware of the history. There are many Malakars in the present Bangladesh, and there are localities named as Malakar para (meaning colony). During the post-partition riots, there has been an influx of Hindus from Bangladesh (hence malakars) from Bangladesh (then East Pakistan). So the deleting Bangladesh from the origin list is a denial of history.

Moreover, Mali and Malakar are both similar and yet different. The entire region once used to be a greater Bengal. This article is specifically about the Bengali Malakars. Like there is a surname Banerji in Kerela, which should not be confused with Banerjees of Bengal. So there can be a separate entry for Mali.

This article is not about the caste, but the surname Malakar. And throughout West Bengal and Bangladesh, the caste is not well classified among the modern day classifications. Even though in 1991, government of Indian classified many surnames including Malakars into the other backward classes, most of them still belong to the general caste of modern day classification.

And the Tribes and bastes of Bengal by H. H. Risley is an extremely well-written and cited work. I would like to hear more why it's not a valid citations.

And lastly I myself belong to Malakar, with my forefathers migrated to west-bengal from Bangladesh, where they were living for past 7 generations. Malakars have an organization in West-Bengal (one of its kind) and they held meetings and community gatherings throughout the year. I will provide the details from the next meet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.50.59.180 (talk) 10:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

See User:Sitush/Common#Castesources. - Sitush (talk) 15:43, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

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Malakar as a Bengali Hindu Surname

Malakar is a Hindu bengali surname used for ages throughout Bangladesh and India. This is a link bearing the list of malakar surname in Bangladesh. [1] I understand there are phoolmali caste, mali surnames across Bihar and Jharkhand, that can always have a seperate wiki page. And I still don't get why H.H. Risley is not a reliable source, I want to hear the arguments about it. On the other hand whatever Sitush claims, he doesn't provide any sources.

Look, Malakar is a surname. Pick up a telephone directory or linkedin or matrimonial website across bengal or bangladesh. If you think Mali or something else is a caste, feel free to create a seperate page. This page stays as a bengali Hindu Surname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.50.59.180 (talk) 10:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it isn't a name. What is the problem? - Sitush (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

The difficulty with this edit is primarily that the sources are not reliable and that has been the consensus of the community here on English Wikipedia for years. For example, no Raj era source is good for stuff about castes, and predatory journals are not acceptable either. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Fine, I ok with removing the legends and stories, but the basic things like the surname is present in Bangladesh, and it is a Bengali surname remains true with or without the Raj Era source. And regarding the occupation, I can show you several articles, just ask someone how lives in either side of Bengal. Iamjfcal (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing in principle to stop us having an article titled Malakar (surname). We do that a lot but they're mostly lists of people who have the name, sometimes with a short introduction if we can find reliable sources about the name. - Sitush (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

This is more complicated than that. Most of the surnames in Bengal or rather in India is way more than a name. It can mean the ancient profession they used to do, some place from where they belong or often some practices. And most of these surnames have a story or history, they have a common marriage ritual and often marry within their surname. So this is a little less than a caste but way more than just a surname.

About Mali and other similar sounding surnames, yes, long time back once upon a time they were same people. With Bengali language taking a distinct route from the other indo-aryan languages like Hindi or Maithili, Malakar and mali formed a distinct group of people with different practices and rituals. My article was intended to focus on the bengali Hindu surname, Malakar (Like Ganguly, Banerjee, Sarkar, Chatterjee) a bit of history and provide the modern day caste information. Hope this clears the doubt. Iamjfcal (talk) 16:28, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Names span nations and occupational groups in the pre-partitioned India (ie: British India and earlier) were (and still are) usually thought of as castes. Just dump some of your sources here and we'll see what can be done but, please, not the sources you've already been using. - Sitush (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

As of now I am leaving two sources: 1. An article published in Indian Journal of Traditional Knowledge. This says about the profession. 2. A newspaper article which invalidates the SC claim of Malakars, unlike the Mali caste elsewhere. So Malakar and Mali can't be put in the same page. 3. The origination of that surname in Bangladesh - Well, I can't really give any particular sources on that, but a simple search in facebook or google in Bangladesh domain would conform there presence.

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/26032/1/IJTK%2013%281%29%20103-110.pdf https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/west-bengal/left-says-malakar-sc-status-invalid/cid/411439

Iamjfcal (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I am still confused as to why you keep referring to Mali. The article made no mention of them and they have the separate Mali (caste) article. I've read the Telegraph source before and am no wiser about this issue, and it is not uncommon for caste groups in India to be classified differently around the various states etc, so working out what your point may be is proving to be tricky. - Sitush (talk) 17:34, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Do not revert the edit, discuss here first.

Discuss your reverts here. Iamjfcal (talk) 16:05, 17 May 2019 (UTC)