Talk:Maria Antonia Ferdinanda of Spain

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On 11 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Maria Antonia Ferdinanda. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

More

Articles like these (about queen consorts) often only gives relatives, styles and so on. There really should be something about her personality, if she had political influence, etc. --85.226.45.121 (talk) 11:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy

Is there really nothing to be said about her, except genealogy? --85.226.42.172 (talk) 06:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Antonietta

I reverted the edit regarding her name as she was born Antonia and as most are aware she became Antonietta while in Italy! There are also various sources on the page which call her this from when i tried to tidy up the article ... Louis Philippe Charles (talk) 13:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What are peoples views on her name!? I think it should be Maria Antonia as her siblings have their Spanish names so why shouldnt she? I will move her soon if there are no objections or other views made Louis Philippe Charles (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please initiate an official move request and provide verifiable citations justifying the move, rather than making a unilateral move. Thank you. FactStraight (talk) 23:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was planning to just wanted some more views on the subject Monsieur Louis Philippe Charles (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Maria Antonia Ferdinanda. Jafeluv (talk) 02:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Antonietta of Spain → Maria Antonia of Spain — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC) She was named Maria Antonia, Antonietta it Italian. Her siblings and other Infanta's of Spain have their native names instead of their "married" names Louis Philippe Charles (talk) 15:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People please! LPC (talk) 14:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we were going to rename this article, then the main thing to do would be to add the name Ferdinanda. She is usually referred to by all three of her names, either Maria Antonia Ferdinanda or Maria Antonietta Ferdinanda. Noel S McFerran (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is true! I still vote Maria Antonia Fernanda as Maria Antonietta Ferdinanda is again Italian and most [Spanish] Infanta's have their "native" names LPC (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Google Book hits (a fairly good idea of how scholarship refers to somebody):

Maria Antonia Ferdinanda 803

Maria Antonia Fernanda 377

Maria Antonietta Ferdinanda 182

Maria Antonietta Fernanda 5

We should not be guided by any predetermined preference for Italian, or Spanish, birth name, or adult name. We should be guided by what scholarship generally uses.

In this case it is fairly clear that scholarship prefers Maria Antonia Ferdinanda. Noel S McFerran (talk) 16:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree :) Maria Antonia Ferdinanda should be used LPC (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move, again

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved Kotniski (talk) 14:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Antonia Ferdinanda → Maria Antonia Fernanda of Spain — Why has of Spain been omitted?! This should be moved asap and in line with other Spanish Infanta's LPC (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support the move to Maria Antonia Fernanda or Maria Antonia Ferdinanda of Spain. I have no oppinion about the Fernanda/Ferdinanda issue, but "of Spain" is important. The title of an article should never be only a first name as more than one people may have the same name, . It is a mistake to remove "of Spain". If we remove the equivalent from all royalty, then there would be great problems in separating everyone with the name Elisabeth, everyone with the name Anna Maria, etc from each other, especially since there are very little name variations. No one should be identified by only a first name. --Aciram (talk) 19:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose As I have shown above "Maria Antonia Ferdinanda" is used more than twice as often as "Maria Antonia Fernanda". Even LPC agreed last week that it was more appropriate. Why has he changed his mind this week? (But yes, I agree that "of Spain" should be added). Noel S McFerran (talk) 23:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I beleive an addition to "of Spain" is an uncontroversial move, and therefore do not require a vote. You may add this to the title directly. I could do it myself. --Aciram (talk) 18:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. That was perhaps the intent of the move request by LPC who may have merely written "Fernanda" by mistake. Noel S McFerran (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That could very well have been the case. As I trust there are no objections to the addition of an "of Spain" to the name, and as that ending should be inkluded no matter which version of her first name are used, I will make that uncontroversial move now. --Aciram (talk) 20:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have performed the move. As User:LouisPhilippeCharles clearly states the "of Spain" issue as the reason to this move request above, I hope it would be correct to close this discussion. --Aciram (talk) 20:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 11 January 2024

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 28 February 2024. The result of the move review was endorsed.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is no clear consensus to rename the article. The arguments for and against the move are both valid and supported by some policies and guidelines, such as WP:CONCISE, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:RECOGNIZABLE, and WP:CONSISTENT. However, none of them are decisive or conclusive, and there is no evidence of a strong preference or agreement among the participants. Therefore, I suggest that the article title should remain as it is for now. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 20:00, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Antonia Ferdinanda of Spain → Maria Antonia Ferdinanda – She's the only person with this exact name. The country is omitted for Maria Theresa and Marie Antoinette. Векочел (talk) 03:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Women's History has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Spain has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Maria Theresa and Marie Antoinette are well-known, even by non-historians. I don't think this woman is widely known and pages should be at recognisable names. I don't think the three given names are recognisable or familiar. I don't mind Maria Antonia of Spain as that is still recognisable, natural, precise, concise and consistent. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per CH. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As all consorts (and people), her surname is her father's house. She is not Marie Antoinette or Cher to go on a first name basis only. Walrasiad (talk)

"Spain" isn't a surname, or "her father's house". Her house (and her father's) would be Bourbon, or Borboun-Anjou, which even still wouldn't strictly be a surname in any real sense.Seltaeb Eht (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is her surname. Like your surname or mine, it's her father's house. What do you think surnames are? Bourbon could be another possibility, but all the children of the Bourbon house of Spain use "of Spain" not "of Bourbon" as their surname. And all children of the Bourbon house of France use "of France". And so it is with every consort on Wikipedia. Walrasiad (talk) 11:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's good that you belong to royalty yourself, but personally my father doesn't have a "House". Yes, in the naming custom tradition I'm part of (common modern English-language conventions), we have surnames, and these usually (but not always) indicate patrilineal descent from a family group. Not everyone has conventional surnames as we understand them in English naming systems today (Icelanders for instance, or this guy), and certainly not everyone did so before the 19th century. To use my example, Charles Philip Arthur George is of the House of Windsor (though not patrilineally I might add), but doesn't have a surname. Different cultures have different naming practices, and that includes the group who have been nobles over Europe for centuries.

"Of Spain" is a geographic designation we've adopted as a convention for disambiguation, because she doesn't have a surname. It's not an integral part of her name. There is legitimate disagreement about whether that disambiguation is necessary or not, and I think you've made clear you think it is. I personally don't think it adds anything, but that's my view. But I respectfully reject that "of Spain" is in any function a surname. Seltaeb Eht (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"House" is just short for "household". It's the term I'm using. Yes, your father has a house - and all his children's surnames are of his house. Your surname is not random, it is not your father's first name (hasn't been for a while), it is not your mother's house, and it is not your profession. Your surname is your father's house.

When surnames were demanded to supplement or replace patronyms, geography was a common choice for surname (mine is a geographic feature). Gentry and nobility adopted surnames from their farm or estate, usually the highest one they got. The estate of royals happens to be the kingdom, and so they go with that.

No, it is not a convention we adopted. It is the convention that they adopted, and imposed. She was always and everywhere "of Spain". And it is a convention we follow.

She's not a burlesque dancer or cabaret star that goes by first names only. Walrasiad (talk) 05:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, reviewing the sources in the article, it seems she much more often known as de Borbón if anything. Which means that's probably a better target than "of Spain", which still seems to me to be an artificial construction. Seltaeb Eht (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Mainly because it disrupts the consistency with the articles on her sisters, Mariana Victoria of Spain and María Teresa Rafaela of Spain. Keivan.f^Talk 06:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Consistency does not control disambiguation. – Hilst [talk] 20:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yet removing the territorial designation would make the name more ambiguous, given that she is not as well known as someone like Marie Antoinette. Keivan.f^Talk 14:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recognizability isn't a factor here, ambiguity is about whether or not she could be confused for other people with the same name. No other articles named Maria Antonia Ferdinanda = no need for disambiguation. – Hilst [talk] 15:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not everything is about ambiguity. There are other policies governing page names. Consistency is one of them, recognizability is another. And the community mostly does think that territorial designations do help with the latter, even if the name is unambiguous. There have been several RMs recently that clearly demonstrated that (this is but one example, I can point to multiple others that took place in the last few months none of which were successful). Keivan.f^Talk 20:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
George III has no country in his article title, but his grandfather's article is at George II of Great Britain. There is no requirement that page titles on different family members follow the exact same format. Векочел (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support to remove unnecessary disambiguation. Seltaeb Eht (talk) 23:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, I don’t support dropping the “of country” for consorts whatsoever. Kind regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 19:58, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME. I don't understand the above opposes really - someone shouldn't be given an artificially long title just because we think nobody's heard of them. Personally I've never heard of Rosario Weiss Zorrilla, but that doesn't mean we have to label her Rosario Weiss Zorrilla of Spain. Article titles are supposed to be WP:PRECISE enough to identify the subject, and no more precise than that. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And yet Rosario Weiss's article title includes a maternal surname that is unnecessary for precision or disambiguation. We don't truncate people's names just to make them shorter, which is why Hitler and Einstein are redirects. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Amakuru. – Hilst [talk] 20:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - It's really not a fair comparison. Both Marie Antoinette and Maria Theresa are more or less household names, I don't think the same can be said about Maria Antonia Ferdinanda. It just comes down to whether or not this name would be WP:RECOGNIZABLE, which I think would be greatly harmed by removing "of Spain". estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Amakuru. Yet another proposal to remove “of country” unnecessary disambiguation and Opposition has no policy basis. How well known the others are is irrelevant. Thinking it does demonstrates a fundamental ignorance about what RECOGNIZABILITY means: it’s always from the perspective of someone familiar with the subject. Anyone familiar with Maria Antonia Ferdinanda will recognize her from Maria Antonia Ferdinanda, therefore it meets RECOGNIZABLE, by definition. —В²C ☎ 21:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.