Talk:Masada myth

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1969 Masada state funeral

• ... that although Israel honored 27 ancient Masada skeletons with a state funeral in 1969, the story of "freedom fighters' patriotic last stand" is now known to be a myth?

• Source: Ben-Yehuda, Nachman (1996). Masada Myth: Collective Memory and Mythmaking in Israel. University of Wisconsin Press. ISBN 978-0-299-14833-1, p. xxi: "The bones of twenty-seven humans found on Masada are brought to burial in an official state ceremony."; pages 241-243: "The affair began in October 1963… Immediately, there were newspaper reports to the effect that the remains were probably of the fighters of Masada, and a state burial ceremony was called for. This issue was raised in March 1967, once again, by the same Shlomo Lorentz of the ultra-Orthodox party Agudat Israel. In a blazing speech in the Knesset he demanded that the remains of the skeletons found on Masada should be given a Jewish burial. Mr. Aharon Yadlin, then the minister of culture and education, pointed out that the Jewish identity of the skeletons had not been established and suggested passing the whole issue on to one of the Knesset’s committees. His suggestion was accepted. In fact, the Knesset’s Committee on Culture and Education held a discussion with Yadin on this particular issue in February and March of 1968… On March 12, 1969, Yigael Yadin told Haaretz that he was opposed to a public burial ceremony. He stated that the evidence of the identity of the skeletons was not conclusive enough. He also stated that he believed that the bones were those of the people of Masada but that he lacked definitive proof. In response to this, the spokesman for the Ministry of Religious Affairs stated the next day, also in Haaretz, that “the heroes of Masada came there from Jerusalem and fought the war of the holy city; therefore, it is only natural that their bones would find their final resting place on the Mount of Olives, which was a Jewish cemetery during the days of the Second Temple…. on July 7, 1969, the skeletons that had been uncovered by Yadin’s excavations about five years earlier were brought to burial in a full and formal military ceremony near Masada, at a place called “the hill of the defenders… An impressive array of dignitaries (including Menachem Begin, Yigael Yadin, and Rabbi Shlomo Goren) were present at the burial ceremonies."

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/The Chinese in America

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 77 past nominations.

Onceinawhile (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - Not sufficiently
• Neutral: - This hook states as fact that which the sources do not state as fact
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - the cite fails to support the hook
• Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: 2603:7000:2101:AA00:A91E:FA5D:EAB2:D6B0 (talk) 09:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is that bad to deserve a cross, but you'll definitely want to add a cite to the first paragraph of Yadin's executions at minimum, and that's before interrogating any of the sources.--Launchballer 14:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Launchballer: I have added a cross-ref (it had been referenced at the end of the paragraph, but the paragraph was then split in to two). Re the IP's comments, the citation quote gives all the info about the funeral, and the rest of his book is about the myth. I guess the IP is referring to the latter question. I can bring some more quotes if helpful.

For context, all the sources in the article say essentially the same thing – there is only one known original source for this event, Josephus. The Israeli national myth version differs from that story in a number of significant ways. We can add some nuance to the words "is now known to be a myth" if that is helpful, but the underlying point is beyond doubt.

Onceinawhile (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not a question of "nuance." There is no consensus - as incorrectly and blatantly stated - in RS refs that it "is now known to be a myth." That's simply fake news. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:A91E:FA5D:EAB2:D6B0 (talk) 21:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The wording that it "is now known to be a myth" is simply not supported by the source provided. Perhaps "believed by some to be a myth" or even better "described by one scholar as a myth" could be supported by the citation, but "is now known to be a myth" embellishes the source far beyond any justifiable limit. Alansohn (talk) 01:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

What is the “it” you are referring to? Onceinawhile (talk) 06:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

@Alansohn: regarding your comment from a few weeks ago, a new section (Masada_myth#Decline) has now been added to the article as suggested by User:Uppagus. It includes a list of the notable scholars which published on this topic between 1975 and Nachman Ben-Yehuda's book in 1996, as given by Ben-Yehuda.

I have read widely on this topic, including the most recent work by Jodi Magness, and can firmly confirm that there is no scholarly debate as to whether this specific narrative is a myth. Not a single dissenting voice. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Once -- the statement is simply not supported by any of the refs. It's really that simple. Actually, this brings the entire article into question now that I consider it. Plus, it doesn't seem to warrant a standalone article at all. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:6043:6D87:AEA7:B5C8 (talk) 06:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Belatedly noting that the article is at a (particularly bad-tempered) AfD, and this should go on hold until this is kept.--Launchballer 12:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Closed as no consensus. This does still sport a {{neutrality}} tag @Onceinawhile:, and I suggest this is actioned.--Launchballer 11:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Launchballer. The tag was added without explanation, and the editor who added it was asked to share their concerns on the talk page 10 days ago. I have pinged them again at Talk:Masada_myth#Ensuring_balance, so hopefully we should have clarity soon. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: it looks like there was no objection to removing the tag, as the pinged editors declined to comment. My sense is that enough people have now read the article and sources, and have come to understand the topic and its context. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There are POV issues with the article as it currently stands. I wrote a detailed, and yet partial explanation on the article's talk page.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Uppagus (talk • contribs) 07:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Uppagus. I have responded on the talk page with proposed solutions. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Own article?

@Onceinawhile I'm not sure that this requires its own article. Maybe it can be part of the main page. Obviously there is conjecture given this happened a long time ago and the lack of sources.

Speaking of which, this page has a lack of sources. Where is your source that it's "an Israeli national myth"

Where is your source that "selectively constructed narrative based on Josephus' account, supplemented with fabrications and omissions. This narrative was socially constructed and promoted by Jews in Mandatory Palestine and later Israel."

Of course there are some scholars who say a siege took place and given the desire to be independent, neutral and balanced, these counter-claims should be added to the article.

For now, there is too much dogma in this article which needs to be toned down considerably if it going to be authoritative. MaskedSinger (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @MaskedSinger: thanks for the feedback. It is good to discuss these points. On the question of this topic as a separate article, the national myth topic is much more notable than the actual siege itself. This article is already longer (22kb) than the siege article (20kb), and it has only just been started. When this article is finished it might be 3 or 4 times the size.

On the sources, please could you confirm you have read the article in detail? The citations and bibliography are primarily scholars published by first class academic publishers, and the citation section includes detailed quotes. I can bring many more quotes if needed, but need to check you have read what is there already? Onceinawhile (talk) 06:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile thanks for getting back to me. I read the article in detail but it's hard to read the sources without having the books in front of me.

If the article is to have credibility and I hope it does, there are a number of things that have to be addressed

1) Some of the language needs to be toned down, especially that which is unsourced

2) Counter claims that the siege did in fact happen need to be brought to balance it. For when push comes to shove, trying to prove it didn't happen is as tricky as trying to prove that it did, especially when there are historians saying that it did happen. MaskedSinger (talk) 06:58, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi MaskedSinger, thank you. I believe you have misunderstood what the article and sources are saying. Neither claims the siege did not happen. That question has nothing to do with this topic. This topic is about the version of the siege story created by early Zionists for nationalism purposes which markedly differs from the only historical version of the story in existence, which is Jospehus’s version. The differences between the two versions is summarized at Masada_myth#Table_of_elements. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be deleted, it presents an academic debate as if it is already 100% solved, and then goes on to describe one-sided theory as an attack page. I don't think this topic merits at all its own page - the topic at question can and should appear under the "siege of Masada" article. I'll open an AfD HaOfa (talk) 13:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

See above. What academic debate? Onceinawhile (talk) 14:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: this question was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Masada myth. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Ensuring balance

@האופה, OdNahlawi, and PeleYoetz: in your comments at the AfD discussion each of you made suggestions of lack of balance / NPOV, but did not provide any specifics, nor any sources. Could you please provide this now so we can address your concerns? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

This statement for example "The early Zionist settlers often considered themselves direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews" is terribly biased, it implies that we Jews today have no connection to our ancient ancestors. Even if it appears in one source it is such an extraordinary and biased claim that it must be removed. PeleYoetz (talk) 05:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you share your concern directly with Yael Zerubavel, the Professor of Jewish Studies & History and the founding director of the Allen and Joan Bildner Center for the Study of Jewish Life at Rutgers University, as well as with the University of Chicago Press, highlighting the following paragraph from pages 68–69 of her 1995 work: In the period in which the Zionist settlers and the first generation of New Hebrews wished to define themselves as the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews, they portrayed the Masada people as the authentic carriers of the spirit of active heroism, love of freedom, and national dignity, which, according to the Zionist collective memory, disappeared during centuries of Exile.

If you are worried that this might be the view of just one rogue decorated high-profile scholar, I suggest reading the 163 citations in the article Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism.

Onceinawhile (talk) 05:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This article looks like it has bias issues as well. The sentence as it appears now in this article seems to deny the continuation of the Jewish people throughout the generations PeleYoetz (talk) 10:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

You appear to have ignored the sources above? Repeating statements doesn't verify them, sources do. And you haven't provided any.

Either way, this specific question is tangential to the topic of this article, so I don't object to the phrasing per your amendment.

Are there any other areas of concern that you have identified?

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@האופה, OdNahlawi, and PeleYoetz: any further comments on this? If you take the time to read the article and understand the context I think you will agree there is nothing POV in here. On the other hand, if you think there is a POV somewhere, please bring a source which states a conflicting position. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't respond, I didn't pay attention to the discussion here. I don't really like getting into discussions, maybe others will want to comment. I mainly want to write about things that interest me. OdNahlawi (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear @Onceinawhile, I have read the article and and there are definitely issues of POV. Here are some of them:

The article is heavily one-sided, it uses questionable phrasing and sources, and quotes selectively from the sources it cites. For example, the source quoted most in the article is Ben-Yehuda's book, which is criticized for being superficial, having a main theory which relies on a misunderstanding of historiographical issues, and being inconsistent in its application of the constructionist method which it officially adopts, but only uses when comfortable, among many other criticisms.(see https://www.jstor.org/stable/43044142) The book is also not self-aware, and is representative mainly of the subjective-constructionist approach, but does not represent the objective approach adequately, and therefore is given undue weight in the article, which relies on this approach exclusively. (ibid.)

As an example for selective quoting of the source, the article ignores the sections of the book which discuss the decline of the "Masada Myth" (Ben Yehuda P. 253 and onward, Magness P. 199).

The article relies heavily on the identification of the inhabitants of Masada as Sicarii, as mentioned by Josephus, and while the passage quoted from the book by Magness is rather blunt -"How did the site of a reported mass suicide of a band of Jewish rebels who terrorized other Jews become a symbol of the modern State of Israel? The creation of the Masada myth—in which these Jewish terrorists are transformed into freedom fighters and the mass suicide becomes a heroic last stand-has been explored by a number of scholars." (Magness P. 197) It is clear that her biting rhetoric is meant to magnify the question she presents. Her actual position, together with other opinions, is mentioned in a previous chapter: "The Jews at Masada likely included unaffiliated individuals and families as well as members of groups such as the Qumran Sect/Essenes",(Magness P. 164) and: "The nature and even the very existence of the Zealots and sicarii are also debated by scholars. Steve Mason proposes that instead of being a distinct faction, the term sicarii was used by Josephus as a “scare-word” to evoke a particular kind of violence and terrorism. Hanan Eshel speculated that because Josephus was a Zealot leader at the beginning of the revolt, when writing War years later he artificially distinguished between the “moderate” Zealots and the “extremist” sicarii, pinning on the latter the responsibility for the disastrous outcome of the revolt and thereby distancing himself. Here I use the terms rebels and refugees to encompass the variety of backgrounds and affiliations represented among the Jews at Masada."(Magness P.165) And so, this would be another example of selective quotation. But regarding the point of discussion, it is not clear whether the Sicarii inhabited Masada at all. The possibility that the inhabitants of Masada were in fact not Sicarii, together with the fact that both Ben-Yehuda and Magness state explicitly that although archaeology cannot confirm the narrative given by Josephus, it also cannot refute it (Ben-Yehuda P.57, Magness P. 195-196), make the idea of the Masada Myth "whitewashing" history or supplementing it "with fabrications and omissions" lose much of its weight, seeing as much is still left for interpretation. These are just few of the issues with the article.

Uppagus (talk) 07:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Uppagus: I see this is a copy of your comment at the AfD. Reading your comment alongside Green's article, it seems you have taken much of what you wrote in your comment from the criticism section of the Arnold H. Green review (your jstor link):

• Constructivism: You incorrectly wrote that Green states that Ben Yehuda has "a main theory which relies on a misunderstanding of historiographical issues"; in fact Green's misunderstanding statement (p.411) refers only to "Barry Schwartz's reconciliation of continuity and discontinuity in collective memory" which is totally irrelevant for the contents of this article. Equally irrelevant to the contents of this article is the reference to "application of the constructionist method". This article doesn't go near any of those areas of nuanced scholarly debate (see Constructivism (philosophy of science) and Subjectivity and objectivity (philosophy)) about the way history is written, so I am unsure why you are raising it here?
• Core points: Green confirms everything that this article uses Ben Yehuda for, which is only the core points, and underpins this by referencing the scholars before Ben Yehuda who published the same: (p.419) "In summary, Nachman Ben-Yehuda formulates a credible, detailed, concept-based explanation of why and how the Masada myth entered the memory of secular Zionists and modern Israelis"; (p.406-407) "Ben-Yehuda acknowledges that he is by no means the first to recognize mythical elements in the tourist-media-schoolbook version of Masada. He cites Bernard Lewis's History: Remembered, Recovered, Invented (1975) as identifying the popular narrative as an example of "invented history" then discusses (14-16) several other scholarly critics whose work preceded his." Would it address your concern if we were to amend the article to replace all 4 of the citations to Ben Yehuda with citations to Green? That would seem a shame given that Ben Yehuda's book has been cited almost 500 times by other scholars. Perhaps we add Green alongside?
• Decline: Re decline of the myth, I will add a section. That is a good addition, thank you. Green has some good commentary here that I will use (p.414): "A fuller understanding of his motives for doing so can be acquired by examining Ben-Yehuda's explanation of the Masada myth's decline, which is disappointingly superficial. He points out that Israel's devotion to Masada peaked in the 1960s; by the 1970s, "pilgrimages" to the site by Israeli youth and military groups were sharply down and critics were beginning to challenge the myth. Later, the IDF's armored units shifted their swearing-in ceremonies to Latrun, the site of a crucial battle in the 1948 war. By the late 1980s, Masada seemed to function less as a national shrine of heroism and more as just another tourist attraction."
• Josephus vs Modern myth vs Other possibilities: As Green writes: "The status of Josephus as the only surviving literary account does not render it an objective account. Ben-Yehuda acknowledges (27-31) the debate about problematic issues concerning Josephus. For example, The Jewish War constitutes a self-justification for Josephus's defection to the Roman side; he was unlikely an eyewitness of Masada's siege and fall, and — in the Greek tradition exemplified by Thucydides - he very probably fabricated the speeches that he put into the mouth of Eleazar ben Yair." I consciously chose not to go into this debate in this article, since this article is focused only the modern myth itself. That there are an infinite number of other possible truths is not the point of this article, as these speculations into ancient history do not make the modern myth any less of a myth with an interesting modern story. Consider the article on Santa Claus versus the article on Saint Nicholas; personally I don't consider debates on the historicity of Saint Nicholas to be particularly relevant to the story of the modern Christmas myth. If you think it is important I have no objection to adding a reference to this point, but my preference would be to keep it short.

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I have added a decline section, based on Uppagus's suggestion of Arnold H. Green. Per the quote in the "core points" bullet above, Green points to an excellent discussion in Ben Yehuda's book which lists all the main scholars who published on the myth before him. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Magnes book

princeton 2021. I think it originally came out in 2019 Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, you are absolutely right. The google metadata says 2021, but the book itself clearly says 2019. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)