Talk:Mass Hysteria (band)

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Requested move 4 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. We have consensus that the band is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the name "Mass Hysteria". We also have a rough consensus that Mass psychogenic illness is the primary topic; at any rate the redirect to the band is untenable if it's not the primary topic. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:27, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

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Mass Hysteria (band) → Mass Hysteria – The latter already redirects to the former. No need for parenthetical disambiguation per WP:DIFFCAPS. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. No such user (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 21:03, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Hhkohh (talk) 13:48, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

This was due to the fact that the latter was changed from its original redirect to Mass hysteria (now a redirect itself to Mass psychogenic illness, where there's a hatnote that states "Mass hysteria" redirects here. For the heavy metal band, see Mass Hysteria (band).) -- Alex^TW 13:28, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Contesting for the above reason. And for future reference, please do not edit my comments, comment or formatting irrelevant. -- Alex^TW 13:38, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Not seeing what the above has to do with article titling policy or other relevant guidelines. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:39, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:DIFFCAPS states that When such navigation aids [hatnotes and disambiguation pages] are in place, small details are usually sufficient to distinguish topics, e.g. MAVEN vs. Maven; Airplane vs. Airplane!; Sea-Monkeys vs. SeaMonkey. This seems like another textbook example. People looking for Mass hysteria are unlikely to type Mass Hysteria (with a capital H). Hatnotes can handle the rest. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Put another way, readers who enter Mass Hysteria into the search box are going to end up at the article about the band anyway, so why do we need the redirect? Redirecting from the base name to a disambiguated name just seems backwards. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, and also redirect Mass Hysteria to Mass psychogenic illness. WP:DIFFCAPS is, and has always been, total garbage. Most users care little for caps. As the Internet and most computer programs don't distinguish between capital and non-capital letters, expecting them to know that Wikipedia has some sort of asinine system in place is laughable. For this discussion and to follow procedures, I'm citing WP:IAR for my position. --Gonnym (talk) 07:49, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Certainly most users care little for capitalization, but that doesn't mean people randomly use initial caps for no reason; it generally means typing in all lowercase, e.g. mass hysteria. We're not expecting anyone to know how redirects work, but who would actually search for a title with initial caps unless they specifically wanted a proper name? Yes, even on the Internet, proper names are generally capitalized. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 15:17, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Go ahead and do a search in any site for two names with a difference in caps, let me know how that works out for you. Still oppose. --Gonnym (talk) 18:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Any site? How about Wikipedia? Putting the two forms in the search box at the top of any page leads to two different results. However the Internet and "most computer programs" are written, Wikipedia does distinguish between caps and non-caps. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose diffcaps really isn't going to help readers in this case of a defunct French band: Mass Hysteria (album) by Rasmus (band) 1998 might well be what some readers will be looking for. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:33, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
  • That's doubtful, considering there isn't even a Wiki page for that album; nor is being defunct particularly relevant, since nobility is not temporary. We're still no closer to deciding what should be done with the redirect Mass Hysteria, which leads here in any case. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:14, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I relisted the discussion, since there's no consensus to move but the question what to do with Mass Hysteria has not been satisfactorily answered. I retargeted the few outstanding links to the band to Mass Hysteria (band) so at least the slate is clean. No such user (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Already redirects, no superior target out there. Dohn joe (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support. While I'm not a big fan of WP:DIFFCAPS, I think it's useful when sources consistently make the distinction between the similar forms, which is the case here. I also agree that no one looking for the illness would use title case, and it already redirects here. By redirecting Mass Hysteria to the illness we would inconvenience many people looking for the band and probably satisfy no one. No such user (talk) 15:25, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
  • would inconvenience many people. Agree, the 1 average daily viewer would indeed be inconvenienced. --Gonnym (talk) 11:37, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

    Also, no one looking for the illness would use title case is patently untrue. The vast majority of our readers will not be familiar with the nuances of Wikipedia's capitalisation rules, which is why DIFFCAPS is such a bad policy.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:11, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

    • • @Amakuru: can you substantiate the idea of it being patently untrue? I get that most readers won't be familiar with the ins and outs of article titling policy, but how does it follow that Mass Hysteria is a likely search term for the illness? Capitalizing everyday words seems to have been big in the 19th century, but not so much these days. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:32, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Within the uncontested applicability of WP:DIFFCAPS. "Mass hysteria" is a well-known concept, but no one capitalizes the h. No homoglyph issue. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:06, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Oppose SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

• • Switching to "oppose" per Amakuru below. Readers would need to understand Wikipedia title styles for title case DIFFCAPS to be meaningful disambiguation, and that is not reasonable. I have opened a policy_talk discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#DIFFCAPS_for_title-case_terms. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per Gonnym. DIFFCAPS for title-case terms is basically dead, even if the strange Red Meat case is still in effect. In reality each case is assessed on its merits at individual RMs, and in this case, the term "Mass Hysteria" very clearly refers more to the concept than the band so the status quo is correct.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:09, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
  • As stated above, the status quo is that Mass Hysteria redirects to the band. How does that jibe with the idea that it refers more to the concept? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:01, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Then maybe the redirect should be changed to Mass psychogenic illness. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:DIFFCAPS and WP:CONCISE. I see some sentiment that the redirect should go to the concept, but not consensus. I agree that anyone going to the trouble of capitalizing the M and H when searching or linking is intending the band - there might only be a few doing that, but it won't affect anyone else in any way. On the other hand, redirecting it to the concept will almost certainly misguide anyone going down that path. As such, WP:CONSENSUS for the title in question leading to this topic (currently as a redirect) stands. Well, that basename redirecting to the current disambiguated title is the epitome of unnecessary disambiguation. Let's fix it. --В²C ☎ 20:13, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
• oppose Mass Hysteria should be redirected to Mass psychogenic illness per WP:COMMONNAME. Also per Amakuru's reply to No Such User, and per Amakuru's oppose. —usernamekiran(talk) 00:40, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Not sure how COMMONNAME is relevant here, since it's about article titles, not what terms redirect to articles (which can be all kinds of non-standard or obscure terms). However, the next section of that policy page says Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to. Are we then anticipating that a significant fraction of people looking for Mass psychogenic illness are going to type Mass Hysteria in title case (not lowercase) as a first guess, as opposed to people looking for the band? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Kind of a mess. Mass hysteria goes to List of mass hysteria cases. "Mass Hysteria" should go to the same, because diseases/conditions can be capitalized. Mass psychogenic illness seems to say it's different from mass hysteria, but is it, really? Hyperbolick (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

  This Ngram may help. "Mass Hysteria" was well used pre-1993 (band formation year). It did about double after 1993, but didn't skyrocket. Increase could coincide with both band and album. At least half seems to be continuation of previous use. Hyperbolick (talk) 19:48, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

  • • I'm not sure how one could tell that from a line graph alone. But based on that Ngram, the frequency of use for "Mass Hysteria" peaked at around 10% the frequency for "mass hysteria" in lowercase. If the title-case term were being used for the illness, it doesn't seem to be very often. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
• Weak oppose The illness gets more views [[1]] despite it being a redirect. In this case it appears that the band isn't that prominent in English, especially given that it only has an article here and at the French Wikipedia. In this case Mass Hysteria should be returned to redirect to Mass psychogenic illness. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

  The views actually seem to indicate that the illness likely gets way more views than the band, given that many people will have reached the band via Google or similar. This indeed would seem to suggest that the illness is actually more likely per Amakuru (talk · contribs). Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:59, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

  • • About all we can infer from that is that people using the redirect Mass Hysteria (and ending up at the band page) represent only a small fraction of visitors to Mass psychogenic illness (or wherever Mass hysteria points to). Given that, how would having the former point to the latter really help much? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.