Talk:NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi

Rename to NZ Transport Agency?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

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New Zealand Transport Agency → NZ Transport Agency — Should we rename to NZ Transport Agency? It is the name it operates under. Nurg (talk) 11:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is the title used throughout the legal info on their website, and has about twice as many Google hits. But I think the existing title is better per WP:ABREV, titles such as U.S. State Department are spelt out fully. NZ is fine for Kiwis, but may not be so well known internationally. XLerate (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I would support the move given that it is both the common name, and the name used by the organisation itself. YeshuaDavid (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined not to rename. While NZ is a standard abbreviation for New Zealand, I don't think it's as universally recognised as USA or US for United States of America, USSR for Soviet Union, or even UAR for United Arab Emirates. Almost everyone would recognise the curent title for what it is, but fewer the proposed title. If that's true... and our current redirect and disambiguation structure supports the view that it is... then the proposed new name is acceptable, but the current name is better according to WP:NC. The official name isn't all that relevant. Andrewa (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

• The official name is New Zealand Transport Agency, as it says in the article, and I'm not convinced by the argument that NZ is an obscure title for New Zealand. The clincher for me is that the organisation refers to itself as NZ Transport Agency, making that easily the most common name. YeshuaDavid (talk) 18:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's true that NZ Transport Agency is easily the most common name, nor valid to argue that just because the organisation uses this abbreviation in its website, that makes it the most common name. Their website is written primarily for NZers, while ours is written for all English speakers. Andrewa (talk) 18:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Board-stacking controversy

I haven't seen this page before today, and I am immediately struck that it seems very odd to have the controversy over the make-up of the initial board in the leader section. I don't want to downplay the controversy, but it's not the organization's purpose nor its a defining feature, so I would expect the controversy would be in a separate section. I will make an edit to that effect shortly, and I encourage anyone who would like to revert it or support it, to discuss it here. Martin Kealey (talk) 00:19, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 15 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Nnadigoodluck███ 12:15, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

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NZ Transport Agency → New Zealand Transport Agency – I think we should use the full name. New Zealand is not located at NZ, so even though NZ Transport Agency is the official name, New Zealand Transport Agency is more acceptable for Wikipedia. The article was boldly moved from New Zealand to NZ by User:Schwede66 in 2013. 122.60.185.29 (talk) 23:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose We go by common name and the current article title definitely was the common name. What we should be discussing now is whether Waka Kotahi has already become the new common name. Schwede66 01:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• I agree that the better question now is whether we should move to Waka Kotahi instead. With regards to the current proposal, I'm not sure as to whether the existing name or the proposed name is better - if we're going for common name then I think you could make an argument for NZTA being the common name, even though we'd never have that as the actual article title. Turnagra (talk) 19:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• Nom Comment Per WP:USEENGLISH, NZ Transport Agency should be used over Waka Kotahi, as both are still official names and most people still call it NZ Transport Agency. 122.60.185.29 (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Schwede66.-gadfium 02:57, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change logo

The 'using our logo' section of the NZTA/Waka Kotahi website shows the recommended logo, which is different to the existing logo on this page. Should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.49.116.201 (talk) 04:38, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I have emailed NZTA today to ask if they can upload the new version as a high-res .png. The existing one was uploaded by Nzta webteam. Quilt Phase (talk) 23:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

In the meantime I have uploaded a lo-res under fair use, and added it to the infobox. Quilt Phase (talk) 02:36, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 27 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The discussion resulted in strong arguments from both sides. And if anything, the WP:COMMONNAME arguments in opposition to the move appear to have more weighting here. But, there is not a clear consensus apparent given the arguments made that in time this may become the new common name. Therefore, this close is without prejudice to a new RM being opened if new sources continue to demonstrate a change in how this agency is referred to. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 00:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

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NZ Transport Agency → Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency – to reflect common usage and official name. See the agency's website https://www.nzta.govt.nz and recent news stories [1], [2] and [3]. Quilt Phase (talk) 23:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Also an OIA for more background: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/About-us/docs/oia2-2020/oia-6648-response.pdf Quilt Phase (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support to "Waka Kotahi New Zealand Transport Agency". Ngrams hasn't caught up and doesn't show use for "Waka Kotahi", but recent news reports tend to include this part of the name in some fashion. However, recent news reports are relatively split between "NZ" and "New Zealand", and Ngrams can tell us that "New Zealand" is more common. BilledMammal (talk) 00:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
• Qualified support The time has come to introduce Waka Kotahi to the article title. The question is whether it needs the English part of the title. Their naming convention is that at first mention, both the Māori and English names are to be used. Subsequent mentions are to be "Waka Kotahi" only. As I work in this area, Waka Kotahi is what I hear a lot more of, but that may be skewed by the fact that many fiends and acquaintances are also related to this field of work. Schwede66 17:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks both of you for the support. While usage in the media is still spread across "Waka Kotahi", "the New Zealand Transport Agency", "NZ Transport Agency", "the Transport Agency", "NZTA" and other variations, and notwithstanding that usage out in the world is not obliged to follow internal brand guidelines, I think we should take our lead from the organisation itself. Their website categorically states here: "Our name is Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency." In comparison, Te Puni Kōkiri does not refer to itself as "Te Puni Kōkiri Ministry of Māori Development". Quilt Phase (talk) 23:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand we also have Oranga Tamariki which was moved from "Ministry for Children". That decision would support a move of this article to "Waka Kotahi" but to have redirects and reference to the English language name. Quilt Phase (talk) 02:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not sure there is enough evidence to show what the common name of the agency is as diffferent sources seem to describe it differently. For example:

• Some sources use the full name "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency" and then proceed to just use "Waka Kotahi" [4] [5]
• Some sources use "the NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi" or similar, such as "NZ Transport Agency - Waka Kotahi", the later implying that the name is Waka Kotahi with the function being the NZ transport agency [6] [7]
• Others use NZTA after quoting the official name [8] [9] [10]

I'm therefore uncertain how to address the wide varriety of names used. We could use the official name as the title but use NZTA throughout the article, but I'm not sure that would be the correct solution in this case. --Spekkios (talk) 23:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• I'll list as oppose unless further discussion occurs. --Spekkios (talk) 21:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. No evidence has been provided that this is now the common name, and it seems unlikely... Waka Kotahi (currently a redirect created more than a year ago) may even be a more likely candidate for that, or the current name certainly still is a possibility. The links provided so far in support of the proposed move are all primary sources either maintained by the agency, or based on their press releases. Of course they use the official name. That proves nothing. Andrewa (talk) 01:42, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

  Indeed evidence has been provided, and your opinion that it "seems unlikely" is not relevant here. None of the three news articles I linked to are "primary sources maintained by the agency" or "based on press releases". They clearly demonstrate naming conventions of those news organisations. Google news searches show a clear move away from English names to "Waka Kotahi" over the last three years. Clearly while within the body of the article, journalists move to more concise names such as "the agency" or "NZTA", the name "Waka Kotahi" is now (end of 2021, beginning of 2022) more frequently seen in headlines and ledes. I am leaning towards moving the article to "Waka Kotahi" but am not sure if that needs a new move request. Regardless, the current name is out-of-date. Quilt Phase (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, and I would equally support a move to Waka Kotahi.-gadfium 02:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support a move to either Waka Kotahi or Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency. Of the two, my preference would be for Waka Kotahi on its own but I'd still be okay with the latter name. Turnagra (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

On reflection, I now support a move to Waka Kotahi, as being more concise. Quilt Phase (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

• Comment according to google search trends, NZTA is still by far the most commonly used, although Waka Kotahi has been gaining traction. Google search results show NZTA having approximately 720,000 results compared to 470,000 for Waka Kotahi. Personally, I have been hearing Waka Kotahi more than NZTA. Even if it is not currently the most common term I expected it to become the most common name soon, so perhaps this proposal may be a little bit early. Although Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency is the official name, I would not support a name to it as Wikipedia policy states that an article name should have naturalness, which the full official name does not in my opinion. Having said that on a practical level Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency might be the most recognised simply because it includes both the Māori and English name. Philipp.governale (talk) 04:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

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NZ Transport Agency → Waka Kotahi – to reflect common usage, concision and official name. Current article name is at odds with logo and infobox. "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Authority" is a (clunky) alternative - it still works well opening the article. See discussion above, recent news stories (eg from Newshub and the New Zealand Herald), and Google Trends over the last 24 months Quilt Phase (talk) 06:49, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Seems analogous to Oranga Tamariki and Te Puni Kōkiri, although this is a slightly more tricky case as NZTA certainly gets used (see the Google Trends link). I've more commonly heard Waka Kotahi used verbally but this may be due to the circles I move in (public sector). It seems recent news stories generally use Waka Kotahi, often spelling out the name in full "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency" and then referring to it as Waka Kotahi; I think this provides some weak evidence of Waka Kotahi being more common because I'd otherwise expect news articles to use NZTA as the shortened form. I also see plenty of recent news articles only using Waka Kotahi, which suggests this name is commonly understood. So yeah, on balance, support. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 07:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support - The proposed title is far more common than the current in recent usage, including from the agency itself, as demonstrated in the move request. I think it'd be fine to introduce it in full at the start of the article's lede, but the title and body should definitely be Waka Kotahi in my view. The trends cited in the nomination show that "Waka Kotahi" is searched for far more often than the current title (given we typically don't use acronyms for titles, and NZTA can still be used alongside Waka Kotahi), making the proposal a more natural option. Given its near exclusive usage by the agency itself and potential confusion with the Ministry of Transport or other former entities like Land Transport New Zealand, the proposed title is also much more recognisable. Turnagra (talk) 07:22, 23 December 2022 (UTC) (amended 17:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC))
• Support, per nom. I recall the other week actually searching up Waka Kotahi and noticing that the title was NZTA on here. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 07:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

  I'll just further elaborate off of here after considering the other comments on this RM. We should not be using comparisons to things such as the United Kingdom article and UK as done further down in discussion, as, the UK does not have the intricacies of NZ English and te reo Māori. United Kingdom being the common name of the country is not contested in any way and is undeniably the common full name. However, with Waka Kotahi, it is clear that NZ Transport Agency as a term is not the common full name. Waka Kotahi is. If we are basing it off of the more common full name, Waka Kotahi makes more sense, despite the NZTA search term (which can easily be used interchangeably, and is, with Waka Kotahi; in fact, more people tend to use NZTA interchangeably with Waka Kotahi than NZ Transport Agency... furthering the point of this RM). Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 03:51, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Naturalness is a factor, Google Trends over the last 24 months shows that NZTA is the commonly searched one right now by a big margin. The media should not be used to know what's commonly understood as the media can have a biased or unneutral view. Also Wikipedia states for naturalness "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for" in Article titles. Also, recognizability, will overseas visitors recognize what "Waka Kotahi" means? Article titles states the following for recognizability "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." I oppose,
  Kiwiz1338 ^💬●💛 11:12, 26 December (UTC)
• Support Reason as per the previous move proposal but the difference is that the use of Waka Kotahi has since become dominant. It’s now the common name. Schwede66 02:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reason I did in the previous RM. In this case the proposed name isn't the common name, with a quick search showing news articles in the last week still using a mix of different names, such as [11] [12] [13] [14]. The proposer is also incorrect about how the official website uses the name, as if the proposed name is used it's always as "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency", not the proposed name. The Google trend results also very clearly show that "NZTA" is by far the most popular search result, which means that the current name is far more appropriate, as it is what people are actually searching for. --Spekkios (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  All of those sources you provided seem to use the term "Waka Kotahi" after initially using a more expanded name, which is consistent with what we've talked about in the move above and supports using Waka Kotahi as the name. The last source is a bit different, but a cursory look at it seems to indicate it's probably not the most reliable source. I'd also point out that "NZTA" is very different to "NZ Transport Agency", which is being searched for far less frequently than Waka Kotahi is. Turnagra (talk) 21:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  How is "NZTA" very different to "NZ Transport Agency"??? "NZTA" is literally short for "NZ Transport Agency", which means if 80% of searches in New Zealand over the last 24 have been for "NZTA", then clearly "NZ Transport Agency" is going to be the most appropriate name, as that is what people are actually searching for.

  As I said, it was a quick search for sources over the past week, but the first uses, in order: Waka Kotahi, a tweet from Waka Kotahi NZTA Auckland and Northland, Waka Kotahi NZTA, Waka Kotahi. The second uses: NZTA, Waka Kotahi NZTA, Waka Kotahi, Waka Kotahi, Waka Kotahi. The third uses: NZTA, Waka Kotahi, Waka Kotahi NZTA, Waka Kotahi NZTA, Waka Kotahi. Which, as I said last time, clearly demonstrates that there is a clear varriation of names used in the same article from New Zealand sources, and this is in the last week.

  Given this clear varriation, it would be completely irresponsible and contrary to Wikipedia guidelines to move this article to "Waka Kotahi", especially when 80% of New Zealand Google searches in the last 12 months were for NZTA, which is short for "NZ Transport Agency", which is the current title. --Spekkios (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  To be clear, you're suggesting that we don't use the name used in 85% of the mentions across those sources, and stick with the one that's not used at all? Turnagra (talk) 01:22, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  No, I'm suggesting that there is no clear single name used consistently across sources, and the name often changes within any given source. Combined with the consideration that most New Zealanders over the past year use "NZTA" as their search term when looking for the agency, strongly implies that the best name to use is not the one that is proposed. --Spekkios (talk) 01:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  "very different" what?. NZTA is an abbreviation of NZ Transport Agency. Just like LINZ is for Land Information New Zealand and DIA is for the Department of Internal Affairs. If 80% of people are searching NZTA then clearly the unabbreviated version should stay. - Kiwiz1338 (talk) 02:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

  Little weight should be given to this since it's just a comment from a more personal experience; but I tend to find people, as of late, who say "NZTA" are saying it in place of saying "Waka Kotahi" which is reflective of the usage change in media saying Waka Kotahi instead of NZ Transport Agency.

  Given that phrases can change meaning in terms of what they're specifically referring to, it does make sense that NZTA, whilst originating as an acronym from NZ Transport Agency, due to the intricacies of modern NZ English and te reo Māori, when people are saying NZTA they are more likely to think of "Waka Kotahi" in terms of the more common unabbreviated name. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 03:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - Beware of conflating "common name" with "efficient internet search terms". It's easier to type a common abbreviation if you are confident your search will return full names or alternates. Suggesting that people type "NZTA" do so because they consider "NZ Transport Authority" or "New Zealand Transport Authority" the common name is mistaken. It's easier to type than Waka Kotahi too. This is why redirects are a good idea, such as those in place for this article. Also note the recent bold move of Māori Television to Whakaata Māori has not been challenged. Quilt Phase (talk) 00:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  "Efficient internet search terms" is part of the WP:CRITERIA we use when determining article names, specifically naturalness: "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English". If 80% of people in New Zealand are searching for one term over another, then that is clearly the title that readers are more likely to search for, and strongly suggests that name is the name those people know it by. --Spekkios (talk) 01:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  By that token, should we not rename the article "NZTA"? Quilt Phase (talk) 01:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  "NZTA" is short for "NZ Transport Agency". Moving it to "NZTA" is like suggesting we should move the "United Kingdom" article to "UK" because that's what most people search for. We use the full name, not the abbreviated name. --01:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC) Spekkios (talk) 01:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  The comparison of the UK doesn't work here though. There is no dispute that United Kingdom is the most prominent term for the country. Here, there is dispute whether NZ Transport Agency is the prominent term over Waka Kotahi, and based off of media coverage, general usage, and search terms, it is not. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 03:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  We have the following:

  • Media coverage over the last week showing that news articles will not only varry the name used across different articles, but within the same article,
  • 80%+ of Google search terms using "NZTA" when searching for the agency,
  • No other evidence showing that one name is used over the other.

  How anyone can come to a conclusion on what the common name is, based on the above, is beyond me. The only conclusion we can draw from this evidence is that the media varries what name they use, but New Zealanders seem to overwhelmingly "NZTA", which is short for the current article title, "NZ Transport Agency".

  The comparison to the UK was about using 'NZTA' over 'NZ Transport Agency' as the article title as the acronym is what 80% of New Zealanders are searching for. Which would be like proposing we use 'UK' instead of 'United Kingdom' as an article title. --Spekkios (talk) 05:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  I think you're being disingenuous when you claim that different names are being used within the same article. Waka Kotahi is overwhelmingly used in the articles you posted, compared to none of them using the current name of the article. This extends over other articles - there are 12 pages of news from the last month which exclusively use Waka Kotahi, compared to less than a quarter of that for any variation of NZTA / New Zealand Transport Agency / NZ Transport Agency in the same period (many of which aren't even in English). Turnagra (talk) 05:56, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  "Waka Kotahi" is simply not used overwhelmingly as the name of the agency in any of the articles that I posted previously. If we ignore what the article uses as the full, official name of the agency, then the figure is 50%. That's not overwhelming at all, especially when they all use different names in the article. If anything, it's disingenuous to state that 50% is an overwhelming figure.

  I don't know why you removed "Waka Kotahi" from the second search, as the argument I am making is not that "Waka Kotahi" isn't used, but that there is varriation in the name used throughout and across articles. Running the search again without eliminating "Waka Kotahi" returns 187 results. --Spekkios (talk) 06:41, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  I removed Waka Kotahi because not doing so wouldn't give the full picture - it'd still show as 187 results even if 186 of them just used Waka Kotahi and nothing else. All your search is good for is telling us that the organisation was mentioned in 187 articles. Turnagra (talk) 06:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  Removing "Waka Kotahi" misses the entire point of what I am arguing. Comparing my search to your search shows clearly that the agency is refered to in different ways across and within articles, which is what my argument is. --Spekkios (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  That surely means that NZ Transport Agency as a name is clearly unsuitable, too? Turnagra (talk) 08:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps, but "Waka Kotahi" is not the best title with everything above considered. --Spekkios (talk) 09:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  Let's see:

  • Recognisability - Anyone familiar with the subject area will unquestionably recognise Waka Kotahi
  • Naturalness - Compared to the current title and "New Zealand Transport Agency", as well as variations of a dual name, this is easily the most natural to use
  • Precision - Easily identifies which agency you're talking about, alleviating confusion with the Ministry of Transport and other transport groups
  • Concision - Much more concise than the current title
  • Consistency - This is the only NZ government agency not at the title they refer to themselves as.

  Add to that the use of Waka Kotahi across far more articles, and I fail to see how Waka Kotahi can be anything other than the best title. Turnagra (talk) 09:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  "NZTA" is by far the more natural search term, which is just the acronym for the current title. It is far more likely that someone searching for "NZTA" is going to recognise the current title over the proposed. It is far more natural to use the expanded name of the acronym rather than a name that has nothing to do with the acronym. "NZ Transport Agency" is also far more precise than "Waka Kotahi". "NZ Transport Agency" communicates to the reader that this article is about a transport agency that is located in New Zealand, while "Waka Kotahi" communiucates no information at all to the average reader. Also, the agency does not refer to itself as "Waka Kotahi", but rather "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency", "Waka Kotahi NZTA", or simply "NZTA", at least from what I have seen so far. --Spekkios (talk) 09:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  I appreciate the amount of detail you've provided in this. I've addressed everything insofar as I think is appropriate. However, I will just clarify that it seems Waka Kotahi (to varying degrees) they do use a mix of all of what you have said + "Waka Kotahi". The quickest example I could find is on their about me page at the bottom (with other examples of other usages throughout). Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 09:46, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  There are other examples of logos, forms, etc, such as here,here, here, and here. --Spekkios (talk) 20:44, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support, Waka Kotahi is by far the name I see and hear most frequently.-gadfium 18:23, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedurally opposed by participants because this title was changed to the current one on 1 Jan 2023 in an RM. Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 20:24, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

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Waka Kotahi → Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency – "Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency" better reflects the name of Waka Kotahi NZTA. Both names are in use and it's inaccurate to use only one name in the title. Michael60634 (talk) 05:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency is the official name, but this is not decisive per WP:OFFICIALNAMES. The common name is Waka Kotahi for the reasons given in the previous (successful) move request, and whether the article should be at Waka Kotahi or Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency or NZTA or NZ Transport Agency was extensively discussed as part of that move request; no need to relitigate. Chocmilk03 (talk) 05:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons outlined in the above move request. Turnagra (talk) 06:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• procedural oppose We’ve just had a move request where everything was was discussed in great detail. Would you might explaining why this needs to be relitigated, Michael60634? Schwede66 07:05, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support: I detailed in the previous move request that:

• media often switches between different names for the agency, often within the exact same article,
• the agency itself uses either the proposed name or NZTA,
• the current title conveys absolutely zero information to the average reader, and,
• 80%+ of New Zealanders in the last year have used NZTA as the search term.

The final point is the most important point. This is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is used to search for things. 80% of people search for a certain term. It is illogical for an encyclopedia, which is used for search for information on things, to not use a name which is used so often to search for the article topic when that term is a perfectly acceptable and accurate title for the subject matter. The proposed title contains the term that 80% of people search for, unlike the current one. --Spekkios (talk) 09:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Common name was Waka Kotahi a week ago and nothing has changed since then; just more examples of mainstream media using Waka Kotahi, e.g 1News, Stuff, RNZ News, New Zealand Herald. No need to revisit just a week since this was last considered. Paora (talk) 09:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• procedural oppose, per Schwede66.-gadfium 17:18, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The two parts of Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency are treated as distinct. There is no need to make the page title unnecessarily so long as the lead and all redirects make clear for the reader. I also dislike NZ abbreviated in the middle as proposed, but that’s of no importance. As this is a different title than those considered weeks ago, I also want to make clear opposition on merit, not just technical grounds. There should be no reason to reopen this question in six months without some material change in the real world. — HTGS (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, per Spekkios. Search NZTA or Waka Kotahi and Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency is the first result. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formally or formerly?

I feel that the first sentence should read 'formerly the New Zealand Transport Agency'....but perhaps its legal name is still that? Wainuiomartian (talk) 05:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

"Formally" is correct. "New Zealand Transport Agency" is indeed this organisation's formal name and legislation refers to it as such, e.g. the Land Transport Management Act 2003. Schwede66 14:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Move to New Zealand Transport Agency

Under the new government, public service departments are required “have their primary name in English, except for those specifically related to Māori”. This includes the New Zealand Transport Agency. 2407:7000:A281:AB00:B888:4925:87A2:6BE2 (talk) 08:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

No. Just wait to see what will happen. Schwede66 08:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like to say that I disagree even with the latest news that Waka Kotahi’s name is going to go after the NZTA part. Common usage in media etc. still will likely follow the status quo or some form of common usage of Waka Kotahi. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 02:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Carolina, I strongly disagree with your statement. The government direction and latest news indicate that all government departments MUST go by their English name. The direction is very clear, and NZ Transport Agency is the first of many government organisations to comply. Common usage is, has, and remains, NZTA (the acronym). We are debating what the formal name is, and it would appear the formal name has now reverted to NZ Transport Agency. 2407:7000:A281:AB00:FD50:6E50:F489:F7D1 (talk) 05:29, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I suggest we move to NZ Transport Agency, now that the name has officially changed.

Even the Maori news media acknowledge this:

https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2023/12/08/nz-transport-agency-dumps-maori-name-first-for-english-name/ 2407:7000:A281:AB00:FD50:6E50:F489:F7D1 (talk) 05:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it should be moved to New Zealand Transport Agency. DDMS123 (talk) 18:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I suggest we wait until it is clear that the common name has changed. It's the common name that counts for Wikipedia's naming purposes, and not the official name. Schwede66 20:26, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

A great current example of this is Twitter.

Also, it's paywalled, but this BusinessDesk article from today refers to "Waka Kotahi (soon to be re-named the New Zealand Transport Agency)". Clearly too early to change. Chocmilk03 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Need to let the media catch up though. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I reckon it's time to rename it - the name change is done and dusted, and all new material from NZTA uses the name NZ Transport Agency rather than Waka Kotahi. BrynnNeedsAHairCut (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Someone start the move request. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 08:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Media and Waka Kotahi's own social media still use the name Waka Kotahi. Turnagra (talk) 08:51, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of time until the name change is added to social media - but new content uses NZTA. https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=791639739672108&set=a.309352864567467 BrynnNeedsAHairCut (talk) 08:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@Turnagra. Please see WP:NAMECHANGES and note that it is not the official name that counts but rather the WP:COMMONNAME as mentioned by @Schwede66 above. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 08:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I also think you may need to check the latest news articles refering to NZTA. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 08:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware that we base moves off the common name and not the official name - what I'm not sure of is why you're telling this to me, and not the person proposing the move based on Waka Kotahi's own usage. Turnagra (talk) 09:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

You said something and I responded to it. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@BrynnNeedsAHairCut @Carolina2k22 @DDMS123 @Schwede66 @Chocmilk03. See page move request below. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Both parties cites COMMONNAME as the reason for their rationale. From what I can deduce, there is no consensus to move this page for now. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

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Waka Kotahi → NZ Transport Agency. WP:COMMONNAME. Some examples of the new name being primarily used in the media in the past couple of weeks per WP:NAMECHANGES [15] [16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28]Te Ao Māori News[29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37]. There may be an argument that NZTA's social media doesn't reflect the changes, It doesn't matter and we will see that in due course. The offical name is NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi but NZ Transport Agency is definitely the common name. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose clear cut case of WP:TOOSOON and, per the above discussions, a name change being driven by the political whim of a new government. Wait for the dust to settle and then see which name is still in usage. Turnagra (talk) 16:58, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I get where you're coming from, but the main point of TOOSOON is that if independent secondary reliable sources don't yet exist, presumably in this case of the new common name, but there is no shortage of them in my first comment's. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

It's understandable that articles which are in the immediate wake of such a decision - or talking about the decision - use the name which the Government has demanded, but they're not an indicator of long term usage. I'd also note that the majority of the sources you've cited don't actually use your proposed title, but are rather some variation of a dual name. Turnagra (talk) 17:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

NZTA is most often refered to in the linked articles, which is the abbrevation of NZ Transport Agency. Some sources use the full name "NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi" and then proceed to just use "NZTA" or "NZ Transport Agency". Kiwiz1338 (talk) 17:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Until the recent government's change, 'Waka Kotahi' & the abbreviation 'NZTA' were both in common use, but uses of the full 'NZ Transport Agency' title were very rare. 130.123.30.116 (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@Kiwiz1338 Oppose per WP:TOOSOON and WP:COMMONNAME. The agency still prioritises the Waka Kotahi name as of now, and in my observation, I've noticed that media has recently been calling it "NZTA Waka Kotahi". —Panamitsu (talk) 22:11, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment - It would be nice if everyone who said something in the Move to New Zealand Transport Agency thread above did so here as well. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

Common usage has changed to NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi. In the last week the media has been increasingly consistent using this term.

Source: [38]https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/whanganui-cycling-walking-and-public-transport-developments-unlikely-to-be-affected-by-governments-cuts/XN3GYH6O2ZDJPOVPUPU5DUH534/ 49.224.210.160 (talk) 02:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment: Apologies in advance for length! I've gone through each of the URLs you've linked in the move request and summarise as follows (no warranties as to accuracy though!):

1. Radio New Zealand article hosted on NZ Herald - uses NZ Transport Authority Waka Kotahi in the headline, but the New Plymouth mayor and Cycling Action Network spokesperson quoted in the story both use Waka Kotahi
2. Stuff article - uses NZ Transport Authority Waka Kotahi in the headline, then NZTA
3. Taranaki Daily News article hosted on Stuff - uses NZTA in headline and in story
4. Autocar article - uses NZTA
5. Wairarapa Times Age article - uses NZTA in header then NZTA Waka Kotahi (although I don't have access to full article)
6. Newshub article hosted on MSN - uses NZTA in headline, New Zealand Transport Agency / Waka Kotahi (NZTA) in first sentence then Waka Kotahi in a later sentence
7. Radio NZ article - this is the same article as #1 above
8. NZ Herald article uses NZTA in headline, NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA) in first sentence then NZTA
9. Manawatu Standard article hosted on Stuff uses New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA)
10. 1 News article uses New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA) then NZTA
11. 1 News article uses NZTA Waka Kotahi
12. Newstalk ZB article uses NZTA (I haven't listened to the story but assume they use NZTA in that too)
13. Sunlive article uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA
14. Nelson Mail article hosted on Stuff uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA) then NZTA
15. Te Ao Maori news uses NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), NZTA Waka Kotahi and NZTA
16. Southland Times article hosted on Stuff uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA
17. Sunlive article uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZ Transport Agency / NZTA
18. Sunlive article uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi
19. Autocar article uses New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) then NZTA
20. Rotorua Live article uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA
21. Otago Daily Times article uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi
22. 1 News article uses New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA
23. Scoop press release uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA) then NZTA
24. Manawatu Standard article hosted on Stuff uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then Waka Kotahi

I note also the following links from the last few days:

1. Newshub article uses Waka Kotahi in headline, Waka Kotahi (NZTA) in first line then NZTA
2. Newshub article uses New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi
3. Southland Times uses NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA
4. 1 News article uses NZ Transport Agency in headline, then NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) / NZTA
5. NZ Herald article uses New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi then NZTA

...hmmm. It's definitely a mixed bag. NZTA is by far and away the most common abbreviation for the agency (but it was before, too). My sense is that the common name is probably "NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi" at the moment. But is it too soon to say we've settled on that?

I think I need to think more on this before forming a view, but thought I would post the list above in case it's helpful for anyone else. Might try and convert it into a table format if I have time later. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 23:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Based on Chocmilk's excellent work, I conclude that it's TOOSOON. I can't see that a new common name has established itself yet. It might within weeks, but who knows. (CRYSTAL?) Schwede66 00:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Per @Kiwiz1338. DDMS123 (talk) 04:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per my comments in the previous requests. --Spekkios (talk) 01:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Support, as per my previous comments ago above.

As previously stated, under the new government, public service departments are required “have their primary name in English, except for those specifically related to Māori”. This includes the New Zealand Transport Agency.

Common usage has always been NZTA, as evidenced by the articles posted above.

NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi is increasingly being used in the media, and this full name is in keeping with the common name abbreviated as NZTA. 203.97.192.58 (talk) 02:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't make changes to article names just because the new government tells us to. Turnagra (talk) 02:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm surprised to hear you say that? BilledMammal (talk) 04:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Too soon. Wikipedia should be one of the last sources to change their name. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (she/they 🎄 🏳️‍⚧️) 17:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Schwede66 and Panamitsu. — mw (talk) (contribs) 10:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support and also support NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi. Based on Chocmilk03's survey, my assessment is that: 1. A few sources exclusively use NZ Transport Agency or its more or less abbreviated forms, but none use Waka Kotahi exclusively; 2. sources which use both names overwhelmingly use NZTA in later mentions, not Waka Kotahi. Therefore NZ Transport Agency is more recognisable title than the current title. "Too soon" is not a reason to delay arbitrarily. Importantly, the surveyed articles are not just a bunch of stories written about a name change itself (a common situation, which can indeed be insufficient evidence), but articles written about NZTA naturally. I see no affirmative case for Waka Kotahi being more recognisable than the alternatives. Adumbrativus (talk) 01:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Looking at results from the past week, we see:

Seven articles using Waka Kotahi (excludes two articles that are discussing the name, not using it)

Fourteen using some form of NZTA

I would also weakly support NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, as news results from the past week shows fifteen using that name. However, I prefer NZ Transport Agency, both because it is more concise and because Ngrams shows that any use of either NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi or Waka Kotahi is very recent. BilledMammal (talk) 04:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

What I see from your sources is that there is a range of names currently in use, and it's far too soon to apply our WP:CRYSTALBALL and determine which name regular use will settle on. Turnagra (talk) 04:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources have already settled against Waka Kotahi - and when we have several viable option we don't leave the article at a non-viable option until it becomes clear which of those options reliable sources settle at. Instead, we move it to the option that currently best complies with WP:CRITERIA, and we move it again later if reliable sources settle on something different. BilledMammal (talk) 04:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

As you pointed out, several reliable sources are still using Waka Kotahi either on its own or alongside NZ Transport Agency. We shouldn't be determining the name of an article until usage of the new name is clear. Turnagra (talk) 04:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

A minority are using it on its own, and sources using the name NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi are not evidence for Waka Kotahi being the common name any more than they are evidence for NZ Transport Agency being the common name.

All they are evidence for is NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi being the common name, and given that there is equal evidence for NZ Transport Agency being the common name we resort to the rest of WP:CRITERIA to determine which of those two we should choose. BilledMammal (talk) 04:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

All evidence is for the name of the agency still being in flux, and that it is far too soon to determine what the common name will be. Moving the article now is pure WP:CRYSTALBALL and is largely driven by political motives, as evidenced further up the talk page. Turnagra (talk) 23:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi. Consensus indicated a strong support to the name above. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 04:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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Waka Kotahi → ? – I think some of the dust has settled now and some things have changed. A few people had WP:TOOSOON as their reason for opposing the last move request, but it has been four months since then. They have a new logo and a NEW APP even! New articles per WP:NAMECHANGES. Please find refs below. NZTA New Zealand Transport Agency/Waka Kotahi, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA NZTA, NZ Transport Agency, NZTA, NZTA NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA), NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA), NZTA, NZTA NZTA Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA NZTA Waka Kotahi, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA NZTA, NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, NZTA NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA), NZTA NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA New Zealand Transport Agency, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA), NZTA, NZTA NZ Transport Agency NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA Waka Kotahi, NZTA NZTA, New Zealand Transport Agency, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA New Zealand Transport Agency, NZTA New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi, NZTA NZ Transport Agency NZTA Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA NZTA, NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA), NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, NZTA, NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi-NZTA, NZTA, Waka Kotahi-NZTA, NZTA, NZTA feel free to add more articles. It definitely shows the current name isn't the "common name", it least by itself. Just what will it be? Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to "NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi". That seems to be the term Stuff and NZ Herald have settled on. RNZ uses "NZTA Waka Kotahi". The full "NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi" is a ludicrous mouthful but that is where we're at as a country apparently. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 02:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi: Agree this has emerged as the common name (and it reflects the new organisation logo/branding, so makes sense that it would be commonly used). I have considered whether 'NZTA' could be an appropriate title given its ubiquity but I don't think it would meet the threshold in MOS:ACROTITLE for using the acronym as the page title, given that the full name remains used and commonly understood (i.e. it's not like NASA). Chocmilk03 (talk) 03:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Move per nom and the above !votes, as well as my !vote in the previous RM. BilledMammal (talk) 03:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to "NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi". I agree that the common name has now changed, and the older common name "NZ Transport Agency" is now part of the new common name. Schwede66 03:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi, more recognizable and common. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 04:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.