Talk:Newell W. Spicer

This article was nominated for deletion on 21 May 2018. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Article

This article has content related to Spicer including "Newell Spicer is now in the premises".. FloridaArmy (talk) 20:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A clipping of that 1864 article exists, here. I don't see how it is useful. Smmurphy^(Talk) 11:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SPS

Self-published sources using vanity presses are not reliable. Please stop adding the thing back here. Much of the sourcing in this thing is poor but that is particularly so. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it got added back again. I've tagged it for now but it really is dodgy. - Sitush (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Over and above the fact it is self published it is a work of fiction and should not used as a RS about this person. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good spot. I should have noticed that because there is form for it. - Sitush (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quantrill

There are two mentions of William Quantrill in the article. The first says that Spicer was among those charged with taking him someplace but then it was determined that the person being held was not in fact Quantrill. The second says Spicer was involved in chasing members of Quantrill's gang.

I cannot see the sources but there appears to be a gap of quite a few years between those two events. Given that the article creator has a poor history regarding accurately representing sources, could someone please check that these are indeed two separate events. - Sitush (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quantrill was killed in 1865 during the war, but he was treated as a criminal/fugitive during the war rather than a combatant, so efforts to capture him continued in spite of the larger hostilities. The capture of other "bushwhackers" continued after his death. So they are separate. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do the sources say that? I'm not really interested in your deduction, sorry, because we've had some very bad experiences of misinterpreting/misrepresenting sources, as I noted above. - Sitush (talk) 16:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean. What might I be deducing? The 1864 story is fairly clear from the reference (even if the reference isn't of top quality). That Quantrill died just after the war is, I think, not OR. Spicer's duties as marshal including tracking down Quantrill's associates seems clear from the 1869 clipping, but if you think that is OR, feel free to tag or remove the statement. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, my mistake. I can't see the sources, as I said, but your reply didn't mention that you had checked them as I requested. - Sitush (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Smmurphy: to clarify, I can't see the KHS source but I can see the newspaper. BTW, the newspaper seems to say he was Deputy Marshal, which is not what our article says. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Spicer was deputy marshal in 1868 and marshal in 1869.[1] If you would feel you need to see a source or have more details about one, let me know. Smmurphy^(Talk) 21:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kansas Territorial Capitol

Just checking: was Kansas Territorial Capitol at Lecompton the specific Capitol building outside of which Titus had a cabin, or do we mean that Lecompton was the Kansas Territorial capital as in "capital city", eg: Paris or London. The phrasing is a bit confusing for me, probably because I am not schooled in US ways. There's quite a bit of this US-centric systemic bias going on here, some of which I have fixed. - Sitush (talk) 15:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lecompton was the capital city of Kansas Territory. The capital building in Lecompton was not completed and the capital of the state of Kansas became Topeka. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. So the article is wrong. I will fix it if someone hasn't beaten me to it. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Home town

"Home town" can be a confusing phrase, depending where you are in the world. It often means birthplace. We use it in this article as his home town of Lawrence but it seems possible that he moved to Lawrence rather than was born there. Since the article already says he was appointed to office there, can we not just say "he left Lawrence", unless of course he was born there (in which case that should have been said way, way up the article). - Sitush (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He was from Susquahena, Pennsylvania (not sure if he was born there, or merely lived there before moving to Kansas) but his home in 1871 was Lawrence. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Let's drop the "hometown". It is confusing and unnecessary as I explained above. As I've said, I think a lot of the issues here are due to a parochial approach to writing. - Sitush (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

The photo in External links (which is also reproduced in the Petersen source) dates from the 1860s. As far as I am aware, that is well out of copyright and there is no reason why we cannot incorporate it into the article proper. My only doubt would be when it was first published but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter for something of that age and if it did then it could still be used under WP:NFCC rationale. - Sitush (talk) 15:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Most old photos went unpublished until much more recently and are not in the public domain. I, personally, prefer it not be used unless it is clearly PD or CC, etc. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's why I mentioned the first publication issue. There is nothing legally wrong with using NFCC in this situation, though. - Sitush (talk) 16:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]